AIBU to think that Bridget Phillipson is exaggerating the level of middle-class support for VAT on school fees?

[TepidWatersOfManagedDecline]

Bridget Phillipson has been quoted as saying that the policy is supported by "middle-class parents in good professional jobs with housing costs who just can't afford that level of fee" and want "brilliant state schools". www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c86wd1y7v2xo

Is this true, in your experience? Most middle-class parents with professional jobs who I’ve discussed this with think that it’s a spiteful policy (including those who don’t use the independent sector).

AIBU to think that Bridget Phillipson is exaggerating the level of support for the policy?

But if the reasonable adjustment a child needs to fully access their education is smaller, quieter classes, then surely it is discrimination to deny them this?
As a previous poster has said, the alternative to this is her child having a full time TA in a mainstream class, which costs the country around £25k with on costs. When an 18k place can meet their needs, spending 25k to meet them is illogical. But it happens just to prove a point

Why do you call the idea that schools are businesses Torification when it's Labour that have decided to add VAT to fees and other educational activities at private schools and also to add business rates? I see both parties as guilty of this.

While the academies aren't businesses I think the issue is that they don't really seem very accountable to anyone. As state run provision in many cases parents have no alternative but to send their child to one of these schools. The idea behind current vat proposals seems to be that it would be best to encourage the state to have even more of a monopoly on educational provision than they do at present.

I think one of the reasons that private schools can be better is because no one would actually be prepared to pay for a school that treated them or their child the way that many academies in particular seem to treat their students.

I think another issue with academies is that without much accountability they can start to pay top staff too much. The amounts going into state education simply are not enough to allows heads of academy chains etc to choose to pay themselves these sums.

When I briefly worked at an academy they had dictated that all lessons at the school s had to follow a particular format as their research (aka mad idea by overpaid educational consultant) had indicated this produced the best outcomes. This led to dull and tiresome lessons that totally lacked any creativity. They also had a bonkers discipline policy that led to children spending a stupid amount of time in internal exclusion.

The concept of education as a luxury product rather than a greater societal good - is a right wing philistine one. Prevalent in the US, where the same approach is taken to healthcare. Roundly eschewed in European countries where VAT is not imposed on education and many universities are still free. Developing countries too see education as a value both in itself and as a way out of poverty - which is why you see immigrants in the U.K. working 4 jobs to send their kids to good schools.

This is part of the problem - the diagnosis of SEN is not universal, and not fair. The level of need represented by an SEN label in different schools and different sectors is wildly variable.

I think it’s clear at this point you don’t have an answer to that particular poster and never did.

In Canada private schools do pay the equivalent of VAT (GST)

Private schools in Canada are subsidised by the state. Depending on the state, this can be as much as a 70% subsidy.

in the US they pay tax on the profit the school makes

This is no different from the UK. Those schools in the UK which are charities make no profit. Those that aren’t charities but make a profit are liable for corporation tax as far as I’m aware.

Another misunderstanding by many in support of the policy. Having an ECHP only exempts you from VAT if a specific school is named on that ECHP and, therefore, funded by the LEA.

The point of reasonable adjustments is that they have to be reasonable, and it is not discrimination if the supplier can show that the effort or expense to provide the adjustment is unreasonable.

In the case you describe, it would almost certainly be seen as unreasonable for a mainstream school to create and staff a small quiet class for all subjects to meet the needs of a particular child. On the other hand, other mitigations - small breakout area, noise-cancelling headphones, specific seating etc- would be seen as reasonable adjustments that go some way to meeting the needs.

Of the ones in state, a significant proportion will have such complex needs that that are unable to take exams, so won't be counted in those stats.

I did let it go. You wanted the last word. So have it.

(I’m not goading you. As you well know.)

Why would it? We have classes like this, which cost about 3k extra per year per child, which is possibly equal to or less than the cost of the extra interventions you suggested.

Special schools are separated out in the stats. The key comparison is state non-selective vs private - and the fact that the private is much higher in that comparison shows that something is wrong.

Anecdotally, the departments of our most selective (and private school heavy) universities are increasingly overwhelmed with the numbers of students requesting exam adjustments, often based on those they have received in their previous schools.

Many people will be paying a lot more than £3k, particularly if they have multiple children. And this comes on top of other significant cost of living increases. Private school parents are not immune to this, we are just not allowed to complain even when it’s acceptable for state school parents who earn more than us do. Those of us that are PAYE (the vast majority of people) cannot “dodge” tax in any way. Your argument is ridiculous.

I have been able to get a higher paying job but that’s not possible for all of my friends who have DC in private school. I’m not sure why that is so difficult for you to understand. My friend who is a social worker can’t suddenly get a 7k pay rise which is what she would need to fund the extra 4k in fees that she has to pay out. And why do you think it’s fine for one family who earns the same as another family to pay 1000’s more in tax to fund a service that they are not using but the ones who are not paying are? It’s perverse.

It shows that state schools are letting their pupils down.

I think that’s fine if you have a class of children with such needs - as eg £3,000 x 15 lots of funding is enough to make it viable. However, if a whole class must be created for 1 child on 1 child’s funding - £45,000 extra from 1 child’s funding us NOT reasonable.

I think the first thing Labour should have done if they want cash quickly to improve services is reintroduce automatic interest withholding of 20% in all bank accounts and scrap the tax free saving interest. It is a high interest environment and I bet countless people are not filling in the tax forms when they should be. That would have been a far more quick and easy way to raise funds that all this divisive farming, WFA and VAT on private school kids. That would have brought in billions instantaneously (assuming banks can do it quickly with their systems) rather than wait until the end of the tax year when only some people are even bothering with doing their self assessment.

Or that private schools are gaming the system.

It isn’t possible, without a universal definition, benchmark and process of diagnosis by exactly the same qualified professionals, free to access for all and applied to all children without gatekeeping, to say which it is with confidence.

Says the woman who continued to post after I asked you to let it go. I don’t need the last word at all but you continue this (as demonstrated here) by posting again.

If feels very much like goading which is why I said it. “As I well know”, oh yes now you can read minds. Your post was goading and passive aggressive and I asked you to stop.

You continue again by telling me I need the last word and that you have let it go but you continue to post. The irony isn’t lost on me.

I give up. This is beyond ridiculous. I have no interest in this argument and won’t post again.

Have a wonderful day.

All you ever had to do was answer the question. Apparently you could not.

Which is why it was so stupid of Labour to disband the state SEN schools under Ruth Kelly (who then sent her own SEN son to a private SEN school).

They’re doing similar damage to SEN kids with this policy.

Mainstream schools are already massively struggling to accommodate SEN students (in addition to all the other social issues they have to contend with) and the problem will only get worse with increasing numbers diagnosed.

There is loads of evidence of state schools failing pupils with SEND. Those of us that have experienced both systems are fully aware of how many children in the state sector are let down. My god daughter’s primary school teacher told her to prepare herself for vocational work when she was 11 years old. Shame he didn’t manage to diagnose her dyslexia. She was just treated as “stupid”.

I think it's a figment of her imagination!

The policy was 100% based upon gaining spite based votes. It's badly thought out, unlikely to bring in anywhere close to what's hoped and will cause more problems in the state sector than it solves - certainly in the short short to medium term at least.
Introducing the change so quickly and mid academic year is spiteful, the government have responsibility to all children, doing this mid year and so soon shows a total disregard and lack of concern for the children who through no fault of their own will have their education disrupted. It's a shambles.

I suspect the government have realised how badly this has been handled, the potentially catastrophic effect on the state schools in over subscribed areas and the wilful destruction of the UK independent sector which (currently) is highly regarded worldwide.

I think it is possible that both are true.

There is not enough funding to fully meet the needs of the numbers of pupils with SEN in state schools. Assessments and EdPsych appointments are rationed through cost and scarcity; EHCPs are rejected automatically at first application; general school funding decline means that extra adults in classes are now rare; experienced teachers are leaving the classroom in droves; all external providers have disbanded or are overwhelmed; and Govian curriculum reforms (and the way Ofsted has assessed the curriculum) have resulted in an overcrowded and dull curriculum.

Equally, private schools, whose pupils can access assessors and diagnostic tests at will, have used this gap to their advantage to gain what their parent body most seeks - the best possible exam results through the most advantageous conditions available.

As I say, both can be true simultaneously. They are both a result of the same root cause - lack of money and lack of SEN professionals in the state health and education sectors, due to defunding by the Tories in the face of societal impacts that have raised the absolute numbers of children with educational beeds.

The policy isn't great but it's the schools' choices that will affect children, not the policy.

Private schools employ at least twice the staff per child as state schools, and staffing makes up the huge bulk of any school's expenditure.

They just need to reduce staffing levels and absorb the cost. It's very simple. In many areas, they could share staff for specialist subjects across multiple schools, or simply have fewer specialists.

The idea that primary kids need specialists in all subjects is silly - the quality of teaching should be high in all subjects from a non-specialist given the intakes.

The refusal to be open about the potential to cut costs makes clear that the schools are determined to not take responsibility for their own budgets and behave in a businesslike manner.

Regarding the SEND issue. I teach quite a few academically able students with ASD (they often like my subject). I think that what they need is to be in a small, quiet class where the majority of the other students don't have SEND. This seems to happen quite naturally at the private school I teach at as all the classes are smaller.

In this way the teacher has time to support the students with SEND and get to know them well as individuals without impacting the rest of the class and the atmosphere stays nice and calm. I don't think you would get the same effect if you had a class of same size where all the children had SEND. I think at that point the class would have to be even smaller and would probably still be more challenging for the teacher and the students.