AIBU to think that Bridget Phillipson is exaggerating the level of middle-class support for VAT on school fees?

[TepidWatersOfManagedDecline]

Bridget Phillipson has been quoted as saying that the policy is supported by "middle-class parents in good professional jobs with housing costs who just can't afford that level of fee" and want "brilliant state schools". www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c86wd1y7v2xo

Is this true, in your experience? Most middle-class parents with professional jobs who I’ve discussed this with think that it’s a spiteful policy (including those who don’t use the independent sector).

AIBU to think that Bridget Phillipson is exaggerating the level of support for the policy?

State schools pay VAT on VATable items then can reclaim it back. So effectively they don't pay VAT.

Yes, I’m sure it varies across the country. You mentioned that you knew no one who didn’t vote Labour. 4 in 5 voters across the country didn’t vote Labour though, suggesting that the people you spoke to perhaps don’t reflect the country as a whole.

Charitable status is a legal definition and applies if the organisation does not make a profit and has an aim that is considered of benefit and "worthy". Education meets that criteria and the indies that have charitable status do not make a profit. Many have horrific bills for upkeep of old buildings, keeping the tech / wifi up to standard for the 21st century and have all the other costs such as utilities that have risen for them the same as everyone else. In order to provide the smaller class sizes that are one of the main attractions of indie schools, the staff bill is enormous. Hence they absolutely ARE charities.

As has been shown on the numerous threads on here, most people who have never used or had experience of the sector assume all indie schools are like Eton and Harrow, when they are very much the exception. The nasty, sneering, gleeful "oh dear, will little Tarquin have to slum it with the plebs" posts of which there have been many, have been sickening to read and says quite a lot about the motivation of those who are in favour of this. Ultimately, the consensus amongst economists is that this will be ineffective in having any noticeable positive impact on the state sector, which renders it pointless and only worth doing to score some cheap popularity points. It WILL however, cause some vulnerable kids, most with SEN and other unmet needs to be dumped back into the state sector that failed them in the first pace. No matter how much BP witters on about EHCPs, she (I hope) knows how broken and hopeless that system is. Many MC parents are using indie at a real stretch because they can't afford to waste 3-4 years of their kid's life fighting the system for adequate support.

100% this.

Middle class here. Can easily afford private school but choose not to send our kids there (and yes could still afford it with VAT being added) as I don’t buy into them being better. What makes our state schools ‘outstanding’? Middle class local parents pushing the state schools to be brilliant.

And for balance there are three private schools in our town and I know many kids that go there. It hasn’t been better but that’s by the by.

Most of the people I speak to are in favour of VAT on private schools.

In fact I haven’t known one that doesn’t. The people who don’t are the people who will have to pay it (which isn’t surprising).

Finally I have been to both state and private so have some understanding (before I am accused of not knowing).

Total wooden dollars. The government either pays it or doesn’t get that money.

So it really doesn’t matter if state schools pay VAT or not.

Unfortunately the point is completely mute.

I only know one family who send their children to private school, I don't know their views but I'd imagine they understand why it's been brought in. Everybody else I know (overwhelmingly middle class) supports the VAT - none of us could afford private school in a million years!

It's a policy of jealousy and the middle are being pushed further from the top. Gone are the days that a GP plus SAHP can afford the fees anyway as pay hasn't kept up with the cost of living.

It becomes elitist when it's not skipping a holiday or going somewhere cheaper for a few years to afford the fees, that is why a growing portion of middle England supports policies targeted at the truly wealthy. You also have a growing small collection of outstanding state schools with similar pupils to small private schools, providing many of the same opportunities through "donations".

When middle class parents see the option to move house to these catchments, it makes financial sense. You can sell the house in the coming years to recoup the money. The money saved on fees can also be invested to provide DC with a house deposit in the coming years.

My children are in their 30s now so maybe things have changed, but when we were sorting out school places for them it was very clear that most clued up parents were not just applying to the nearest state school. They were reading Ofsted reports, looking at exam and SATs results, talking to other parents, visiting schools and generally doing everything they could to work out which was the best school for their child that they could realistically get them into. In some cases they moved house or started going to church or got their child music lessons or private tuition to give them the best chance of getting into a specific school. Families on very low incomes can't generally do any of that except go to church. Outright gaming of the system by affluent parents who then patted themselves on the back for sticking with state schools and not 'buying privilege' by paying fees. No, you just bought privilege by paying over the odds for a house 200m from an outstanding school.

And that is true - I don’t know anyone who voted Labour. Apart from the “Boris” years, my MP has always been Labour. I read private school threads from an educational point of view, in all honesty, I don’t think this issue bothers the country as a whole. That’s the point I was trying to make - albeit badly - there are pockets of the country that are in support of this policy (or even apathetic or ignorant of it).

Logic would dictate that middle class professionals who can’t afford private are more likely to support the policy (or not care either way)

The policy isn’t going to lead to brilliant state schools and will affect certain places more than others. It won’t be long until we see the Daily Mail style sad face articles where people have lost out on spaces because catchments have shrunk and house prices have risen in areas where there’s fewer than parents able to afford the increase in fees.

I’m middle class and support the policy, as does everyone I’ve discussed it with, including my decidedly right-wing privately educated daughter-in-law.

Private schools arent going to be paying VAT, they are going to be charging it to parents. The whole concept of VAT is that it's a cost to the end consumer not the business that charges it

Both my catchment primary and secondary are oversubscribed, there certainly aren't spaces for all without an influx from the private sector who want their child to go to the local school.

I don't know how many that might be but it's foolish to assume that all areas are the same

I'm a middle class professional and I don't agree with private education.

A lot of those who do support the policy don’t actually understand it (evidenced by the many posts on mumsnet over the past few months). Many believe that all schools have charitable status and that VAT is somehow linked with this. Many believe that private schools haven’t been paying VAT to date (incorrect, as they have been paying unrecoverable input VAT). They don’t understand that private schools already pay more tax than the state schools. Many don’t understand the difference between scholarships and bursaries.

Despite it being pointed out many times, every thread about VAT seems to attract entirely irrelevant comments about charitable status. Some people don’t want to believe the cold hard facts.

To be fair though, I’m not surprised that many don’t understand it, because the Labour Party themselves don’t appear to understand it, and a lot of the mainstream media trot out untruths as fact.

I am fascinated by the 'spiteful' comment. I have only heard it from right wing people about Labour policies - its just a weird thing to say and weird way to look at things.

No one is forcing you to use it. Everyone has a choice not to use it. I can’t understand the logic of denying someone else a choice though. I don’t agree with a lot of other peoples’ life choices.

Funnily enough, a lot of those who claim to disagree with private education have access to an excellent state alternative. Vast swathes of the country do not. If you can find a state alternative which serves your child’s needs, fair enough. Many people can’t though.

So far Labour seem to have divided the population into

WORKING PEOPLE

MIDDLE-CLASS PEOPLE

PRIVATE SCHOOL PARENTS

Laughable. I think it’s the headings in their back if a fag packet manifesto. With no clear definitions of any of the above.

Which one do we fit into kids?

Most middle class people I know aren't really arsed. I see much more outright support and in particular opposition to the policy on here than I do IRL.

I’m in London. Everyone I know who is a “middle class professional” supports the VAT changes, or at least thinks they are reasonable. Some have children in private schools, some don’t.

And why using the term ‘middle class’? So retro, and lazy.

I don't agree with taxing education and think this is a slippery slope. I can't see how they can keep paid for after school clubs VAT free in state premises but VATable in a private school - it's the same service and should be treated equally.

I would like to see much greater regulation of invasive cosmetic services, VAT on almost all private cosmetic surgery (exceptions for reconstructive surgery or similar that the NHS would itself fund), and compulsory healthcare insurance for anyone using private healthcare so if they have complications that the NHS has to fix the NHS can reclaim the costs from the insurer.

I don’t understand this either. I’m not even entirely sure what “middle-class” is. I always think it rather strange when people describe themselves as such. I don’t understand the obsession with “class”.

I don't think I've heard anyone talk about this in real life. I live in quite a middle-class area & no one, that I know of, sends their children to independent schools. I agree with it myself and would assume others do as I've not heard anything to the contrary.

Her comment about ‘pushy middle class” parents also suggests that those who she doesn’t view as “middle-class” aren’t pushy enough and haven’t got enough aspiration for their children. All rather offensive really.

Lots of thoughts are going round my head. I thought our local primary and secondary were great until the end of yr 7 when I realised my daughter was in a mess and school needed her to ‘toughen up’ - you only really know what the schools are like when your kids are struggling.

My middle class friends who send their kids to state schools support this change to private school fees.

My middle class friends who send that kids to private schools don’t support the change to fees. But they don't admit to state school parents who have zero sympathy - they aren’t stupid!

The private school VAT policy is perfect red meat to Labour supporters who have had to stomach removing winter fuel allowance from lots of pensioners. Not quite spite but probably good politics.

I will be furious if my daughter’s school goes to the wall due to the VAT change and extra money goes to the school that let her down. But I guess we will be collateral damage ?