Page 23 | AIBU to think that Bridget Phillipson is exaggerating the level of middle-class support for VAT on school fees?

TepidWatersOfManagedDecline · 2024-12-29T14:00:26+00:00

Bridget Phillipson has been quoted as saying that the policy is supported by "middle-class parents in good professional jobs with housing costs who just can't afford that level of fee" and want "brilliant state schools". https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c86wd1y7v2xo Is this true, in your experience? Most middle-class parents with professional jobs who I’ve discussed this with think that it’s a spiteful policy (including those who don’t use the independent sector). AIBU to think that Bridget Phillipson is exaggerating the level of support for the policy?

Boohoo76 · 30/12/2024 10:00

M0rnington · 30/12/2024 09:38

Great so you can pay the fees and the VAT if you want it. The vast majority in the same position have to do without.

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And how does making even more “do without” improve things? Can’t you see that this policy is just a smoke screen, designed to whip up a “class” war by a Government who is doing nothing to improve state education? I can’t believe that people are so gullible…

M0rnington · 30/12/2024 10:01

velodrome · 30/12/2024 09:56

Your attempt to rewrite your position that you are only slagging off the bad private school mums, as if they are a totally different group, isn’t working.

You’re still being a massively sexist man or woman whichever group of women you’re directing your misogyny at, but it’s particularly low to be directing it at mums of kids with additional needs.

It IS the Sen mums you are calling ‘hysterical’ and you accuse of whipping stuff up.
There are several posters on here with kids with SEND who have been lucky enough so far to have kids in private school after mainstream has not met their kids additional needs.

They are not taking away anything from the kids who are STILL having terrible experiences in mainstream. You know more than one injustice can exist at the same time. This not a race to the bottom.

Those kids with SEND who have only state education to rely on will soon be even worse off when their state schools have to also accommodate the kids with SEND coming in from private schools.

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Oh do give over. I’ve read countless threads on this with posters crying “ but what about the send kids”, they didn’t care about send before and won’t after.

Pay your vat.

RhaenysRocks · 30/12/2024 10:04

M0rnington · 30/12/2024 09:42

And the privately educated have the sharpest elbowed parents who are paying the wages of their teachers. 81% of send pupils are state educated, the numbers in private schools getting extra time says it all.

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It really doesn't and you are clearly just on a wind up. I have said elsewhere that I am in huge long term debt and have reduced my pension contributions to afford the fees. I can't blithely "afford it" but I'm literally mortgaging my future to protect my kids' MH and meet their needs. I shouldn't have to and this just makes it even more difficult FOR NO DISCERNABLE GAIN.

M0rnington · 30/12/2024 10:05

RhaenysRocks · 30/12/2024 10:04

It really doesn't and you are clearly just on a wind up. I have said elsewhere that I am in huge long term debt and have reduced my pension contributions to afford the fees. I can't blithely "afford it" but I'm literally mortgaging my future to protect my kids' MH and meet their needs. I shouldn't have to and this just makes it even more difficult FOR NO DISCERNABLE GAIN.

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Well time will tell.

Blabadder · 30/12/2024 10:07

NoCarbsForMe · 30/12/2024 09:50

I support it.
Pay your tax and stop moaning.

Exactly. If you do t like the price you’re paying for a service, stop using the service.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 30/12/2024 10:09

Boohoo76 · 30/12/2024 10:00

And how does making even more “do without” improve things? Can’t you see that this policy is just a smoke screen, designed to whip up a “class” war by a Government who is doing nothing to improve state education? I can’t believe that people are so gullible…

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Agreed in spades. There's a strong whiff all through this thread of 'If I can't have it for my kids nobody else should have it either'. Why not aim for more for all our children?

Boohoo76 · 30/12/2024 10:11

Blabadder · 30/12/2024 10:07

Exactly. If you do t like the price you’re paying for a service, stop using the service.

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Maybe the state school parents could pay more for the service that they are using…especially the ones that are earning more than many private school parents.

Nappyvalley15 · 30/12/2024 10:14

So there was no tax break for private schools. Labour are pretty much lying when they say this.

Labour are charging the parents VAT to discourage the use of private schools and satisfy an ideological position.

It will raise very little tax. There will be little extra money for the state education budget.

It will cost the state sector more in terms if SEND provision.

It will disrupt the education of many children, especially as it is being done part way through an academic year.

It makes us one of the very few countries to tax education as everyone else seems to recognise that education is a public good.

So despite it being a poor policy, it is popular amongst some because it levels down at a time when people, including the middle classes, are feeling poorer.

I find it all bit sad and scary tbh.

redwinechocolateandsnacks · 30/12/2024 10:15

@RhaenysRocks - I couldn't afford private education for my now young adult DD. To be honest even if I could afford to pay a private school would have found her too difficult and disruptive. We found a state school and worked with them. Later we found more specialist post sixteen provision and worked with them too. Our savings and pension are intact and I think this is important too - you have a long road ahead. Paying for a private school - good, bad, indifferent isn't the answer if you can't really afford it. You have made a choice to opt out and now that choice has got a bit more expensive but it was you choice.

NoWordForFluffy · 30/12/2024 10:19

redwinechocolateandsnacks · 30/12/2024 09:53

@NoWordForFluffy You really should stop giving inaccurate information. Yes, you can state independent provision on an EHCP. You will only get that provision if all other options prove unsuitable. You are also looking at providing education for a child with very complex needs in need of specialist provision and not a child who simply requires 1:1 and copes better in a small class.

No, you're wrong.

I'm well aware that it's only if all other options are unsuitable, but they DO fund EHCP pupils at our local mainstream private school.

It all depends on the content of the EHCP and what local offerings are available in the LEA. But private mainstream can be funded (and cost less than LEA special).

Boohoo76 · 30/12/2024 10:20

redwinechocolateandsnacks · 30/12/2024 10:15

@RhaenysRocks - I couldn't afford private education for my now young adult DD. To be honest even if I could afford to pay a private school would have found her too difficult and disruptive. We found a state school and worked with them. Later we found more specialist post sixteen provision and worked with them too. Our savings and pension are intact and I think this is important too - you have a long road ahead. Paying for a private school - good, bad, indifferent isn't the answer if you can't really afford it. You have made a choice to opt out and now that choice has got a bit more expensive but it was you choice.

You found a state school that would work with you. Can you not understand that isn’t an option for all parents, that’s why there are so many children receiving little or no education at the moment? Yes, it was their choice, but it wasn’t their choice for the Government to stick a 20% tax on the service that they are using.

velodrome · 30/12/2024 10:21

M0rnington · 30/12/2024 10:01

Oh do give over. I’ve read countless threads on this with posters crying “ but what about the send kids”, they didn’t care about send before and won’t after.

Pay your vat.

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I’ve posted that I have SEND kids in my family and they and their parents are really worried and affected by this (in state and private schools) sadly you are still talking in ignorance Mornington

You have zero recommendations for the families who can’t pay the VAT and whose SEND kids this does affect apart from ‘Pay the VAT’. How exactly do you think that will improve state provision for SEND?

Please tell us, I think a lot of us on here would be very reassured if that were true. But you know it isn’t true. And you’re not know that you’re very lucky if one of your kids has an EHCP. Genuinely happy for you. Other kids are just as deserving and don’t get EHCPs purely for budget reasons

Can you please stop spreading misinformation also

state or private schools don’t put pupils on the SEND register just because parents ask them to. Schools do it independently, in line with reports from teachers or specialist professionals assessment, as is only right.
we do have a state system of assessing kids- EHCP, which now has increasing barriers put up against it to access it. which for some reason you don’t want to acknowledge. Again happy that your child was lucky. Perhaps this was some years ago now?

juggleit · 30/12/2024 10:21

Blabadder · 30/12/2024 10:07

Exactly. If you do t like the price you’re paying for a service, stop using the service.

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So much gaslighting.
For all those parents defending your positions re send kids
‘You can't argue with stupid’ so the saying goes. Have a cuppa and let the idiots carry on. You have my support ❤️ 💐

velodrome · 30/12/2024 10:22

You all have my support too

M0rnington · 30/12/2024 10:22

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 30/12/2024 10:09

Agreed in spades. There's a strong whiff all through this thread of 'If I can't have it for my kids nobody else should have it either'. Why not aim for more for all our children?

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They are

LetItGo99 · 30/12/2024 10:22

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 30/12/2024 09:52

When the 1944 Education Act was put into force shortly after the end of WW2 by the Attlee Labour government, they were able to push a lot of extremely radical things through because they had a huge majority and most British people agreed there was a need for change. The Welfare State had arrived, the NHS had huge support and in education the school leaving age went up to 15 (from 14) and children were now entitled to free secondary education instead of spending their entire compulsory school years in the local elementary school, which took 5-14 years old and taught mostly just the 3 Rs. There were to be grammar schools for the brightest, most academic children, to be selected by the 11+ test. Then there would technical schools for children considerd to have an aptitude for that sort of education. The majority of children would go to Secondary Modern schools which would teach a broad-based curriculum with plenty of opportunity to learn practical skills alongside the more academic subjects.

It didn't work out quite like that, of course. The technical schools largely failed to materialise and entry to grammar schools was dominated by the middle classes. However, there were enough bright working class children getting a decent education that social mobility increased enormously. An additional effect was that far fewer parents paid for private education. They were already paying much higher income tax and the grammar schools were doing a good job, so why pay for a private school?

This is what Labour ought to be concentrating on now. Put up income tax so everybody pays towards getting the NHS and state education back on track. If state schools had good buildings and facilities, a full complement of appropriately qualified staff, good behaviour and discipline, excellent pastoral care and support for children with all kinds of difficulties, a broad-based but rigorous curriculum and all the other things that private schools offer, why would anybody pay, except out of snobbishness?

It would be an investment in the future for our government to do this. We desperately need a better educated workforce with good mental health if we are going to continue to be a prosperous, peaceful country.

What we've had in the last six months, though, is relentless negativity. The tiny amount of money this VAT change might generate is a drop in the ocean of what's needed to sort state schools out and what it's mostly done is give Labour activists a group they can demonise and blame, namely parents who send their children to private schools. Disappointing.

Great post, and I agree completely.

RhaenysRocks · 30/12/2024 10:25

redwinechocolateandsnacks · 30/12/2024 10:15

@RhaenysRocks - I couldn't afford private education for my now young adult DD. To be honest even if I could afford to pay a private school would have found her too difficult and disruptive. We found a state school and worked with them. Later we found more specialist post sixteen provision and worked with them too. Our savings and pension are intact and I think this is important too - you have a long road ahead. Paying for a private school - good, bad, indifferent isn't the answer if you can't really afford it. You have made a choice to opt out and now that choice has got a bit more expensive but it was you choice.

And what if you hadn't found that school? Then what? I'm a teacher, I am more than happy (and did) engage and try to work with the school my kids had access to. I am making the best choice for them that I can and if it means I'm not as comfortable down the line, so be it. The state can pay for my elderly care when I can't find it myself due to this... Or maybe my kids will look after me with the decent jobs they'll hopefully get as a result of being able to attend a school that doesn't trigger EBSA. Just not sure of the point of making it harder for no gain, which is what this does.

Boohoo76 · 30/12/2024 10:25

juggleit · 30/12/2024 10:21

So much gaslighting.
For all those parents defending your positions re send kids
‘You can't argue with stupid’ so the saying goes. Have a cuppa and let the idiots carry on. You have my support ❤️ 💐

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And my support too.

M0rnington · 30/12/2024 10:25

velodrome · 30/12/2024 10:21

I’ve posted that I have SEND kids in my family and they and their parents are really worried and affected by this (in state and private schools) sadly you are still talking in ignorance Mornington

You have zero recommendations for the families who can’t pay the VAT and whose SEND kids this does affect apart from ‘Pay the VAT’. How exactly do you think that will improve state provision for SEND?

Please tell us, I think a lot of us on here would be very reassured if that were true. But you know it isn’t true. And you’re not know that you’re very lucky if one of your kids has an EHCP. Genuinely happy for you. Other kids are just as deserving and don’t get EHCPs purely for budget reasons

Can you please stop spreading misinformation also

state or private schools don’t put pupils on the SEND register just because parents ask them to. Schools do it independently, in line with reports from teachers or specialist professionals assessment, as is only right.
we do have a state system of assessing kids- EHCP, which now has increasing barriers put up against it to access it. which for some reason you don’t want to acknowledge. Again happy that your child was lucky. Perhaps this was some years ago now?

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You do realise that an EHCP does not guarantee you a private education- far from it. An EHCP in the state sector is a massive help. You don’t leapfrog from getting an EHCP to private education. The aim is to provide support within the state which EHCPs do for the vast majority of children .

Skiptogetfit · 30/12/2024 10:26

M0rnington · 30/12/2024 09:36

Whatever . VAT will still be charged from Wednesday on education except for those with an EHCP. You have one soooo….

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You’re totally wrong. Merely having an EHCP does not exempt a child from the VAT. If it did parents wouldn’t be complaining!

Dearover · 30/12/2024 10:26

Boohoo76 · 30/12/2024 10:11

Maybe the state school parents could pay more for the service that they are using…especially the ones that are earning more than many private school parents.

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I would quite happily pay more in taxes. For some reason though this proves unpopular with most of the population.

My DH recently had to wait 25 hours for an ambulance which has left him with long term injuries. I would pay every penny I could to ensure others don't have to go through the same thing.

I firmly believe in paying a fair amount for good public services, whether for the NHS, schools or services provided by local authorities. The trouble is that far too many don't understand that you can't have decent public services for everyone without everyone contributing.

RhaenysRocks · 30/12/2024 10:28

M0rnington · 30/12/2024 10:22

They are

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Not by this policy though. Noone on here is saying they want their kids to do better at anyone else's expense. Noone has said they don't want a level playing field. But if getting that involves steamrolling flat any tiny improvement a PS can offer some kids, rather than raising everyone to the same level by proper large scale investment funded by everyone then it's not the right choice.

M0rnington · 30/12/2024 10:32

velodrome · 30/12/2024 10:21

I’ve posted that I have SEND kids in my family and they and their parents are really worried and affected by this (in state and private schools) sadly you are still talking in ignorance Mornington

You have zero recommendations for the families who can’t pay the VAT and whose SEND kids this does affect apart from ‘Pay the VAT’. How exactly do you think that will improve state provision for SEND?

Please tell us, I think a lot of us on here would be very reassured if that were true. But you know it isn’t true. And you’re not know that you’re very lucky if one of your kids has an EHCP. Genuinely happy for you. Other kids are just as deserving and don’t get EHCPs purely for budget reasons

Can you please stop spreading misinformation also

state or private schools don’t put pupils on the SEND register just because parents ask them to. Schools do it independently, in line with reports from teachers or specialist professionals assessment, as is only right.
we do have a state system of assessing kids- EHCP, which now has increasing barriers put up against it to access it. which for some reason you don’t want to acknowledge. Again happy that your child was lucky. Perhaps this was some years ago now?

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Really

https://schoolsweek.co.uk/ofqual-investigates-extra-exam-time-at-private-schools/

81% of send children are in the state sector and of the 6% privately educated many are in selective schools.

Says it all really.

Ofqual investigates extra exam time at private schools

Forty-two per cent of private school pupils get extra time, compared to 26.5 per cent of state pupils

https://schoolsweek.co.uk/ofqual-investigates-extra-exam-time-at-private-schools

Boohoo76 · 30/12/2024 10:32

Dearover · 30/12/2024 10:26

I would quite happily pay more in taxes. For some reason though this proves unpopular with most of the population.

My DH recently had to wait 25 hours for an ambulance which has left him with long term injuries. I would pay every penny I could to ensure others don't have to go through the same thing.

I firmly believe in paying a fair amount for good public services, whether for the NHS, schools or services provided by local authorities. The trouble is that far too many don't understand that you can't have decent public services for everyone without everyone contributing.

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As you say, most people don’t want to pay for the services they are using, they want someone else to pay. I know a number of people who use private school who earn less/ have less assets than others that I know who use state schools. This is why I have such a problem with this VAT policy. It is not means tested in any way. Additional money needs to be put into state education via general taxation.

Boohoo76 · 30/12/2024 10:36

M0rnington · 30/12/2024 10:32

Really

https://schoolsweek.co.uk/ofqual-investigates-extra-exam-time-at-private-schools/

81% of send children are in the state sector and of the 6% privately educated many are in selective schools.

Says it all really.

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My DC’s school is academically selective but there are still quite a number of pupils with SEND. In fact, pupils with dyslexia are amongst some of their highest performers. Says it all about some state schools and how they let pupils with additional needs down doesn’t it…