AIBU to think that Bridget Phillipson is exaggerating the level of middle-class support for VAT on school fees?

[TepidWatersOfManagedDecline]

Bridget Phillipson has been quoted as saying that the policy is supported by "middle-class parents in good professional jobs with housing costs who just can't afford that level of fee" and want "brilliant state schools". www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c86wd1y7v2xo

Is this true, in your experience? Most middle-class parents with professional jobs who I’ve discussed this with think that it’s a spiteful policy (including those who don’t use the independent sector).

AIBU to think that Bridget Phillipson is exaggerating the level of support for the policy?

I'm yet to be convinced that the policy will result in "brilliant state schools"

I have limited sympathy for the schools because I feel they have already driven fees wildly beyond the reach of the people who previously might have gone there.

So many of the schools locally to us have been bought by large global organisations who are very clearly not charitable organisations, and who seem more focused on expanding their organisations than really passionately caring about the individual schools.

I truthfully have no idea how any of these schools will survive anyway with fees increasing at the rate they are.

I think there’s some irony that Phillipson says her parents sent her to a catholic school as they wanted the best education for her. Will she be closing religious schools down next then - as I am excluded from using that kind of education because of my religion, which is also presumably wrong if state education should be equal for all.

A lot of middle class parents with kids of primary age near already-oversubscribed secondary schools will be worrying about what an influx of private school or would-have-been-private-school kids are going to do to the maximum admissions distances…

I laughed when I saw this headline. She’s an absolute liar. It’s a poorly thought out policy based on nothing but spite and no one I know supports it, whether their kids are in private or state.

I think that there is a certain Mumsnet bubble against this. I'm middle class, dcs are/were state educated. Lots of middle class friends, mix of state and private schools.

I have only one friend who is vocally against the VAT changes, and she got herself into a pickle because she started down the private school route relying on relatives to pay towards the fees, and then their circumstances changed which left her shouldering the full cost.

Everyone else I know, private or state, just accepts the change, or is in favour.

I see this around this area, it’s had great state schools for several years now. There are a few private schools, but parents are choosing state provision. I know several families with children who will go to secondary school in September and they’ve had to put 5 choices down in the accessible area. They have all said it’s so difficult to choose because they’re all good or outstanding.
This is in the E. Midlands.

I’m a secondary teacher and a parent of a Yr 9 and a Yr 6 (who also has an EHCP). I support the policy from an idealistic teacher point of view (would love a boost to the budget!), from a parental point of view I never hear the private vs state education discussed in my circle. I wonder if it is area dependent?

She's conflating two separate things. Of course people want brilliant state schools but whacking VAT on fees is not going to make that happen.

Well I am middle class as are most people I know. We all support VAT on private schools.
Also it was in their manifesto and they received a massive majority. Many middle class people voted for them.

I’m not sure how many “middle-class” parents will be supportive of her suggestion that state schools can be improved by them merely being a little more “pushy”. The tone insinuates that state schools will be better if only teachers and parents try a little bit harder and request improvement.

She’s confusing herself now, with her desire to punish private schools. On one hand she says that private schools are now beyond the affordability of most of the middle class, and that the number of pupils is falling because of reducing birth rates. On the other hand, she’s saying that she doesn’t expect much of a reduction in private school numbers over the next few years and is basing the tax take calculation on that. The two viewpoints are contradictory.

Most people i know fully support it, including those using private schools. We would have all preferred them to give state schools charitable status and allow them not have to pay vat on all supplies but at least this evens then playing field so to speak. Private schools are not charities round here, it's a joke to say the are. The only possible exception would be specialist schools for issues such as dyslexia which are run fully as charities ans serve a specific purpose

Only 1 in 3 voters voted for Labour, suggesting that 2 in 3 voters didn’t agree with the policies on many things. Large numbers of the electorate didn’t bother voting, suggesting they didn’t agree with the policies either. They only receive a large majority because of the way seats are allocated.

Different areas are probably different, but I don’t know a single person who voted Labour (and most of those use the state education system).

I don’t think of myself as middle class, but reasonably comfortable. I support the VAT change because I don’t think independent schools are charity organisations. They should pay VAT like other businesses.

I don’t think the policy improve state schools. It might help with tax raised in long run. I don’t think there will be a problem with influx of kids to state locally. The last big year is already in Year 8. There are plenty of spaces locally for year R, 3 and 7 entries. DC primary had just reduced a class because of anticipated drop in numbers. They already have one less class in KS1 with mixed year teaching, going from 2 per year. For year 7, everyone in catchment gone into DC state comprehensive despite it being a very big year. There will be space for all and will help with local state school numbers. Most parents in independent will keep their kids in anyway.

That reflects my experience, too. Most of my middle-class friends (living in the south east and south west) voted Lib Dem.

Everybody we know support it including private school users.

There is a big wide world outside of MN.

We would have all preferred them to give state schools charitable status and allow them not have to pay vat on all supplies but at least this evens then playing field so to speak.

You are mistaken in your understanding here. For a start, charitable status has absolutely nothing to do with a school’s VAT position. Around half of private schools do not have charitable status.

The change in the VAT position is to do with output VAT (which parents have to pay). Input VAT (on supplies bought in) has, to date, been paid by private schools. They have not, until now, been able to reclaim that VAT. State schools however, can reclaim that input VAT. Even before the VAT change, private schools were paying VAT which state schools were not.

I agree - including the voting. I don’t know anyone who didn’t vote Labour.

I don’t think independent schools are charity organisations

Half of private schools don’t have charitable status. In any case, the VAT treatment has nothing to do with charitable status.

They should pay VAT like other businesses.

They do pay input VAT. As they have not been VAT registered to date, they have been unable to reclaim that VAT, unlike other businesses.

The change in the VAT treatment is to do with output VAT, which parents will be paying. The schools themselves are not paying the VAT.

First post nails it, as so often. Didn't BP also talk about tax breaks for independent schools, when in fact not having to charge VAT on fees is not a tax break and being able to reclaim it on massive building projects will be a huge benefit for places like Eton and Harrow?

Around 4 in 5 of the electorate either voted for a party other than Labour or didn’t vote at all. Only around 1 in 5 of the total number entitled to vote voted for Labour.

Yes she did talk about “tax breaks for private schools”, seemingly unaware that the VAT she has introduced is paid for by parents, and not the schools themselves. It’s rather concerning that someone in charge of policies doesn’t even understand the very basics of how the education system works. Still, it’s ok, because state schools will be improved by her and middle class parents merely being a little more “pushy”.

The middle class like all classes is a mix of selfish and considerate people- so yes some people will recognise their privilege. It’s not a tax of spite- it’s a tax on people who are in a better place than most to shoulder the burden- but I’m sure some people who would rather keep penalising the 40-50k earning families and cut from the disabled.

I’m not arguing voting statistics, just musing that different “bubbles” will see things differently. I don’t consider myself MC but as a teacher who is married to a teacher, I guess I am. I live in an affluent part of a deprived area of the country - no one discusses private education. I only know one person who sends their kids private and that’s my Head.

Every time I've ventured into a thread on VAT and school fees I find that a great many people who say they support the Labour policy don't understand VAT and think it's all to do with getting rid of charitable status for private schools. It really isn't that complicated. They did want to get rid of charitable status a while back but discovered after announcing it that it would actually be extremely difficult to do, so changed tack and decided to force schools to charge VAT on school fees instead. If the schools manage to remain open and bring in more in fees than they have to pay out in salaries and other costs, they will still be able to hold onto that surplus without paying any corporation tax if they are charities, just like Oxfam and other charities do. If they aren't charities and are profitable they will be paying corporation tax already.

I live in posh South East, everyone I know supports the vat. We are all middle class professionals.