To not understand how this means a man can get a female passport?

[Brla]

A close friend of DH recently came out as trans. He’s had surgery abroad (FFS I think it’s called) and has set up an Instagram account with videos of the process and many, many, many outfits and make up videos. He has two sons and was married for 14 years before this.

I don’t really have an opinion as such on being trans. I think it’s likely that it’s a genuine feeling that I just can’t understand as I haven’t experienced it and don’t think it’s necessarily just a mental illness.

I don’t understand though that this person has not had his genitals removed or changed (not sure how you would express it) and yet has still got a new passport now saying F. Am I being thick for being unable to get my head around this? He still has a penis so surely that means he is male? How can he have had a passport issued as female?! Do you literally just need to apply and say you’re now presenting as female?

Yet there's never any criteria given as to how we're supposed to know the difference between 'real trans' and 'not real trans'.

"Well the other thing trans allies do is then claim that person (ie trans rapist whatstheirname) isn't really trans (!!!) Genuine trans people are just going about their business not bothering anyone (in fairness I think most are) and so terfs are just using someone who isn't even really trans to try to prove a point."

This boils down to......

• not all men present a danger to women but safeguards put in place to protect woman require excluding 'good men' as there is no way of knowing who the 'bad men' are. By excluding all men, we are not saying all men are bad/dangerous.
• not all transwomen present a danger to women but safeguards put in place to protect woman involve excluding 'good transwomen' as there is no way of knowing who the 'bad transwomen' are. By excluding all transwomen, we are not saying all transwomen are bad/dangerous.

I fail to see why people find the first doesn't 'reveal' hatred of all men but the second does reveal hatred of all transwomen.

Yes you do, if you read my previous post. Who is ‘we’?

I’m all for healthy debate. What are your views?

For me, biology is about sex, age, race etc. I don’t believe this can be changed. I don’t think a person should be able to say ‘I’m 18, so let me buy alcohol’ when they’re actually 14, for example. Age isn’t a feeling, it’s a fact. Or that a woman can declare herself a man based upon a feeling.

It doesn’t mean I hate anyone who believes otherwise. I still believe everyone is deserving of basic human rights. Human rights have to be balanced though, and everyone’s needs considered.

It is a biological reality that most men are stronger than most women and that, due to higher testosterone, are naturally more aggressive. Statistics back this up too. Do you agree? Women are the more vulnerable sex, generally speaking. That’s why we have single sex spaces, and it’s why I believe they should be protected. It’s not that I have anything against trans people, it’s because I believe, women as the physically weaker sex, have the right to single sex provision.

Really? Have you considered the implications of that for women and girls? 🤬

Q: How, in the name of all that's holy, do you "live as a woman" without being female? A: You don't!

Why is anyone with half a brain cell entertaining this shit? 🤬

It bloody well is!

No they don't!

Lovely that your 'several' trans friends are happy.

Several million women sure as hell aren't!

And hang yours even further for your absolute lack of any care for women and girls!

I am perfectly happy to accept her as female.

You are free to do what you want of course. But you must accept that your friend, rationally speaking, isn't female.

And have a think about the legal ramifications of classifying someone as something they obviously aren't.

Lose the cock.
It’s not hard to understand.
BUT! Once trans women have done so they deserve the respect due to them, as women.

No. Cutting off a man's dick makes him a man without a dick, not a woman.

The passport is to enable you to be identified as how you look currently. It's not the ultimate document that decides your legal sex. That would be a birth certificate.

So if the person is identifying as female and looking female, then the passport needs to reflect this else it would fail to meaningfully identify the carrier.

If 'Pauline' could travel on his old passport as 'Paul' not necessarily same surname and looking totally different, then that would potentially be worse.

I think it should say T.Man/ T.Woman on trans people's passports though. Rather than male/female.

It never ceases to amaze me how many people seem to think there's no actual criteria for being a woman.

Its like they see the world as 'men' and 'not men' (or their idea of men).

That's bollocks though, isn't it? It's an important identity document that is supposed to identify you. It contains biometric information.
A person identifying as female rarely actually looks female, it's almost always perfectly obvious that they are in fact male.

Why the pretence at validation with legal fiction? He knows he's male, we know he's male, the airline and immigration staff know he's male. He's not going to fly to certain countries presenting as female because he knows it won't work out well for him.

It's all bullshit. The passport might say it's a female called Pauline but we all see Paul.

A passport is a legal document and is used as such. For example, qualification for women's boxing events at the Olympics was based on passport sex markers.

and I'm pretty certain 'Pauline' would be easily recognised as 'Paul'.

"Why the pretence at validation with legal fiction? He knows he's male, we know he's male, the airline and immigration staff know he's male. He's not going to fly to certain countries presenting as female because he knows it won't work out well for him."

This is the reality.

My work exposes me to lots of trans people. Some of the transmen pass, this is usually dependent on their height and / or the size of their head/skull. To date, not a single transwomen I have worked with has passed and, broadly speaking, they have fallen into two camps when it comes to not passing. The first, the majority, feel ashamed and want to avoid any confrontation about their sex. The second go into a narcissistic rage the moment they suspect someone has the audacity to think of them, let alone state that they are male.

In most activities of daily living, sex is immaterial and we should all be able to get along regardless of how people present themselves to the world. In contexts where sex matters, we should be able to organise provision in accordance with natal sex and no male should be classified as female on documents that will determine access to sex-specific provision - irrespective of how this impacts on their feeling or behaviour. Other measures need to be put in place to address the issues arising

I don't think anyone should be encouraged, let alone forced, to have any kind of surgery. Not even to get a GRC, notwithstanding the fact that i don't agree with a GRC under any circs, it is currently the law so i have to put up with the existence of this legal fiction.

I feel really bad for any woman (or man) who doesn't fit the relatively narrow "understanding" (eg sex stereotype) of what a woman looks like (as the 6'1" pp mentioned above) because the current situation means that anyone who falls outside this narrow band is automatically suspected of being something they are not. See also butch lesbians and slight-bodied effeminate men. Keeping all facilities (biological) sex segrated is the answer. Unisex or both-sex facilities are also a solution sometimes.

I worry about the "you can refuse a healthcare worker for any reason so just say 'no' if a trans woman nurse turns up" doesn't work for many reasons. Not least refusal of treatment for "transphobia" but also the possiblity that a racist could refuse treatment by a black female nurse (as an example). Where does that end?

As for trans women, and/or men who have been co-existing for years and now feel targetted? thank the TRAs for that. Not everyone else.

ETA: the ability to simply switch sex-marker is batshit. Not least when claims of trans people being the victims more often than anyone else of violent crime. Nobody can verify this if nobody keeps accurate records. Nobody can target help, aid or anything else in the direction of "the most marginalised" if nobody can identify them.

Certainly not as ladylike as having your penis turned inside out

Leaving aside that basically in real life no transpeople actually look like the sex they want to be, what if I'm 25 but have plastic surgery to look 15? Should my passport now say I'm 15? Or if I'm 14 but wear a lot of makeup and grown up clothes, should my passport say I'm 18? And if not, what's the difference between that and a male having a passport which says he's female?

@Nameychangington very true. I wasn't to look like a supermodel. Can my passport photo reflect that?!

@Nameychangington I get you. But the person would also now have a different name. I think if they look totally different, have a new name and are going by the opposite sex then it's fair enough to get a new passport. But as I said, it should say they are trans man/woman rather than male/female.

@Brainworm I know a few trans men who would easily pass. Not so sure about TW. But I don't know any.
So the fact people can always tell the real sex isn't necessarily true. And officials at the checkpoint having to look at passports that seemingly don't represent the person standing in front of them, it would take ages?

MNHQ are very efficient at removing offensive posts.
Standing up for women and protecting the rights of women and girls is Not ‘hate speech’ or ‘transphobia’
I cannot understand why this is constantly cited on posts/threads like this. The old tropes pop out - ‘if you would just meet a transperson’ ‘ if you’d just listen to a transperson and their struggles’ etc, and ad nauseum
I respect transpeople having rights; absolutely, but when their rights impinge on mine, then it’s a No. Third spaces have been suggested many times but transpeople don’t want this as it wouldn’t give validation.

And why compare the refusal of care from a transperson to the refusal of care from a black person isn’t the same at all!!!
(I think pp put this as a thought but still don’t like it)

Sorry- my last paragraph should have a ? after ‘person’ then ‘It’ isn’t the same