To not understand how this means a man can get a female passport?

[Brla]

A close friend of DH recently came out as trans. He’s had surgery abroad (FFS I think it’s called) and has set up an Instagram account with videos of the process and many, many, many outfits and make up videos. He has two sons and was married for 14 years before this.

I don’t really have an opinion as such on being trans. I think it’s likely that it’s a genuine feeling that I just can’t understand as I haven’t experienced it and don’t think it’s necessarily just a mental illness.

I don’t understand though that this person has not had his genitals removed or changed (not sure how you would express it) and yet has still got a new passport now saying F. Am I being thick for being unable to get my head around this? He still has a penis so surely that means he is male? How can he have had a passport issued as female?! Do you literally just need to apply and say you’re now presenting as female?

Lostcat - when a man says 'I'm a woman' what changes him from male to female?

I know I'm a woman.

Right. This is exactly the experience that trans women have too.

They know their bodies are different to yours, they know that they were registered male at birth, they know that other people see them as male. But yet, in spite of all these things, they know that they are a woman.

This is what it is to be trans.

It's not a choice. It's not a pretence, It's not a philosophical belief. It is, as a pp said, a "state of being": a fundamental characteristic of a person that they can do absolutely nothing about.

They know that this makes no sense in light of the physical reality of their bodies; this can be deeply distressing and disorienting. This is why many trans people seek out medical interventions, to try to alter their bodies to match their experience.

So they know they are a man and also that they are a woman?

So there is no difference between men, women, men who say they are woman and women who say they are men? So no need for 'trans' to exist as we are all everything all at once?

Migrating to a new country and applying for a job in a rape crisis centre when the job is advertised for females

I know I'm a woman.
Right. This is exactly the experience that trans women have too.
They know their bodies are different to yours, they know that they were registered male at birth, they know that other people see them as male. But yet, in spite of all these things, they know that they are a woman.

But, unlike a woman, they have zero evidence that they are one. So it is entirely a belief system, and no different from thinking they are a different age, or race.

They know their bodies are different to yours, they know that they were registered male at birth, they know that other people see them as male. But yet, in spite of all these things, they know that they are a woman.

This is a logical fallacy however.

They can't know that they are a woman - because being men, they've never been women. They don't know what it is to be a woman.

So as a form ID distinct from travelling. That makes sense.

The most they can ever say is that they feel uncomfortable in their male bodies and think/suspect that they'd be more comfortable in a female body. But they cannot ever know that this is the case, because they will never have the experience of being in a female body.

No they don't know their bodies to be female-

They already know that they are male.

You are confusing knowledge with belief

@TheKeatingFive since you're back do you accept that it's obvious why the OP was described as falsely naive? Only you seem to have ignored my answer after pointedly asking for it several times.

They know their bodies are different to yours, they know that they were registered male at birth, they know that other people see them as male. But yet, in spite of all these things, they know that they are a woman.

What causes this - we don't know. We do know that it is a widespread form of human diversity. That it often manifests in the earliest years of childhood. That it is often highly resistant to change. There is plenty of research that suggests that being trans may have a durable biological underpinning, although as with research investigating the biological roots of sexuality, the science is still in its infancy.

There is nothing wrong with being trans. With the right medical support and social and legal accommodations, trans people can live full, healthy, happy and fulfilling lives, without trying to deny or hide that they are trans.

You are trying to make a biological fact into a feeling. It's not one. Being a woman is not something a male bodied person can know they 'really' are, that is not possible. Any more than I can know I really have gills not lungs. It's not true, they don't 'know that they are a woman' because they are not one.

A woman is an adult human female, that's all it is. It isn't a belief, a feeling, an idea, a set of behaviours, a choice of clothing, an identity or anything else, it's just a biological fact. Men are not, and cannot ever be, women. I'm sorry that makes some of them sad but it's still true - whatever they believe about themselves, they are not women, they are not 'really' women, they are not 'meant to be' women. Woman is a biological fact and a man by definition is not a woman.

Being a woman is not something a male bodied person can know they 'really' are, that is not possible

And yet it is possible. This is what it is to be a trans woman.

How do they know what it 'is' to be a woman?

This is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard.
They cannot know that they are a woman whenever they clearly know that they are male. They are just manifesting what they think it is to be a woman.

A female could be born and live her entire life in a coma. She would still be female without knowing it. A trans identified man only has thought whilst being in a male body. It isn't something you have any conscious or subconscious input into. You are either male or female. Your mind is irrelevant.

As you grow you gain an identity and personality and learn how that interacts with the world. Your identify has no bearing on how others know and perceive you. Because their perception is as equally valid as your identity.
None of this overrides basic science which is that all of us exist in our bodies which remain the same sex no matter how much our identities, personalities and perceptions change. Nobody assigns anyone a sex.

They know their bodies are different to yours, they know that they were registered male at birth, they know that other people see them as male. But yet, in spite of all these things, they know that they are a woman.

They don't know. They only think they are. They cannot know that they are a woman, when they are not in fact a woman.

This is where the prejudice and disdain for trans people comes from: the absolute refusal/ denial of the reality of trans experience.

But trans experience is real; and it's not that uncommon.

This is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard

they don't know

they cannot know

Denial... refusal...

If it was real there would be no detransitioners.

*I know I'm a woman.

Right. This is exactly the experience that trans women have too.

They know their bodies are different to yours, they know that they were registered male at birth, they know that other people see them as male. But yet, in spite of all these things, they know that they are a woman.*

Well, I am never going to get an answer if sex segregation should be allowed, lets go to this one.

I know I am a woman because I am over 18 and I have had periods since about 12 years old. If I hadn't been registered as female at birth, my parents would have taken me to hospital when I started bleeding below. Similar, if I hadn't started periods at 15 or so, they would also have taken me to a doctor to see if anything was wrong.
Likewise, when a transwoman started having semen ejaculations during their sleep from their penis, this was confirmation they are correctly observed as male at birth. Likewise, not starting bleeding for periods would not have spurred the transwomans parents to take them to a doctor. In my case and in the case of the transwoman our bodies confirmed to us our sex.

A transwoman cannot know they are women, as a. they are men and b. they do not know what it is to be a woman.

These are facts. Anything else is belief and feelings.

Yes exactly.
And essential for trips to Malaga.

Again, Lostcat, the denial is not the trans experience that transwomen identify as being a woman, but the denial is that they are a woman, as in adult human female.

This is where the prejudice and disdain for trans people comes from: the absolute refusal/ denial of the reality of trans experience.

There is some absolute refusal/denial of reality going on all right, and it's not from the feminists.

Yes we are perfectly within our rights to deny and refuse to partake in a belief that is not grounded in any sense of reality. That exists only inside a man's head

That is the very basis of our right to freedom from beliefs

Only in that being alive is a state of being. It is something that you are.
Trans people exist, in that there are people that say they are trans, it's a word they use to describe themselves.
Transwomen are men who think they would prefer to be women. But they aren't.

They're just humans, like the rest of us. Male or female humans.