Mayor of Mazan (Gisèle Pelicot)

[niadainud]

Wtf? It's not that serious because no-one was killed? And he said this more than once in the interview.

Incroyable. Putain !

He's apologised, according to Le Monde, but still.

There is a double standard. With racism, this site cries “not all white people “ when it is put to them that whites are inherently racist.

This ^^

Plus it is very uncomfortable for many women to accept that men, as a group, are a significant threat to women because it is easier to think that it's only a minority and therefore it won't affect them. Many women do not want to accept the facts because the facts are horrendous.

Unlike other generalisations that are unfounded, such as overweight people being lazy etc. men are a threat to women.

Let's stick with facts:

69,184 recorded rapes by police between 1st July 2023 - 30th June 2024 in the UK- perpetrators 100% male

5 in 6 women who are raped don't report it so we can conclude that there were 415,104 women raped last year in the UK

If you include sexual assault that figure rises to 798,000 women raped or sexually assaulted in the last year in the UK. (figures accurate to year ending 2022)

1 in 30 women (so probably at least one woman you know) was raped or sexually assaulted by a man last year.

Responding to this thread with comments about not all men is frankly missing the point by quite some margin.

I think this is wrong. It's more a case of women overestimating how much men care about them. There's a difference. Men don't actively hate women, their actions are not driven by seeking to harm women. Any harm caused is a byproduct of them seeking pleasure or whatever else they are seeking. It's not that they hate women, it's that any pain or damage inflicted is seen as a necessary evil to get what they want. They just don't care about it.

In the French case, the men were not seeking to harm the woman. They were seeking something for themselves - sexual pleasure, control, the thrill of doing something outside the norm.

The outcome might be the same either way but the problem can never hope to be addressed until we understand the cause of the problem and the thinking behind the behaviour.

I was using it as an expletive which is its common usage.

Perhaps it was a bad choice of word, but it's ridiculous to accuse me of "pretending" to care for women.

I walked into our local Tabac yesterday to post a letter (at 12 o’clock) and it was full of men getting hammered after a few hours spent hunting. I was so extremely uncomfortable I almost left. This case has unveiled something that makes it impossible to unsee. I was so relieved I hadn’t sent my daughter in, but it doesn’t lesson the fear that I have for her and all young women having to negotiate and keep themselves safe in this world.

With racism, this site cries “not all white people “ when it is put to them that whites are inherently racist.

I don't @EddyF Most of us were raised with racist culture, maps, books, history, parents etc. Makes sense that we have to challenge it or it will self-perpetrate. You have to do the work. And chances are it will linger.

And there are very few places where all the bad shit that happens to Black people is done by white people. But in those places, as everywhere else, most of the violence will be done by men, Black or white.

Oh, I don't know. Why would they be seeking something right there if there was no hate? And there's a level of "not caring" that overlaps active hate. When it comes to dehumanising people, to feeling free to ignore the fact that someone else has as many feelings as you do, and enjoying that freedom to harm someone else, well if it isn't hate it will do just as well.

You can go too far worrying about the causes and the thinking. These men probably weren't thinking, they were doing their best not to think. Or to empathise. They were choosing to shut down the bits of their brains that could have said "don't". As people do when they're deciding to do something bad to someone else for their own satisfaction. For a few of those men the empathic or ethical ways of thinking might be missing or blunted, but probably not so much you'd notice. And some people imagine sex as a kind of secret "anything goes" zone and porn mightily encourages that.

None of us are perfect and one of the most dangerous combinations is hating or despising people plus getting something out of acting on those feelings - money, sexual satisfaction, job security, status. The men were somewhere along the righthand bit of ther NAMALT chart but it doesn't matter exactly where. Pelicot himself was way off the far end, the others not. As the psychiatrist on "51 Men" said, they weren't serial rapist types but they weren't just average either though there was nothing obvious to distinguish them from average men. Banality of evil and all that. 50-100 men who funnelled themselves along that path out of, I dunno, how many men in the locality?

So "not all snakes" but even with just a 1 in 100 chance for getting bitten by an individual snake the chances of getting bitten ramp up massively because life is not just one walk through the snake pit, life is one walk after another after another. We're going to meet the poison snakes and women do have to hope the circumstances don't add up to getting bitten. And as a society we have to try to cut down the opportunities (and by that I mean keeping the snakes away, not telling women to keep off the grass) and decrease the reward the snakes get from biting.

I see where you are coming from however I do believe a significant amount of problematic male behaviour is driven by hatred towards women. This tends to be linked to childhood abuse, the culture of toxic masculinity, witnessing domestic violence and lack of support and opportunities in the environment. So it is certainly complex, and hate is part of that.

I am a psychologist and used to work in forensics, specialising in sexual violence perpetrated by males. Most of these crimes were motivated by power or sadism, with an undercurrent of hatred towards women. Research will back this up, rape is rarely about sex and mainly about power. Dominating and humiliating women. You can also see this in incel culture, there are a number of disturbing documentaries and forums and again the hatred is plain to see.

Of course there is nuance and this is not a black and white issue, but misogyny is absolutely rife sadly.

"putain" literally means a prostitute, indeed

but is also a very common expletive in French. You might disagree with it, but good luck retraining the entire French population and stop them using it.

The OP clearly used it in the French meaning and manner.

I can't imagine any weirdo being offended by hearing "fuck!" in response to that story either. Fuck is used so much in our language, it's barely offensive. Yes, it's a swear word that I would use as such, but so far from the worst one.

Put things back in their cultural context, and keep your indignation for the actual story and the rapes, you sound ridiculous.

Many men are just as shocked as any woman by that story, men were dealing with the investigation, trial and caring for the victim.

It's not a case of "not all men", it's that the majority of men are the same as us. There are too many bad apples, that's true, but generalising and pretending it's a "men" problem is stupid and inaccurate.

It is a men problem. Clearly.

In terms of numbers, more than 1 in 100 men finds children sexually attractive. That means there's one in your street, on your bus, at your workplace. When asked the right question, not about rape but about forced non-consensual sex they wouldn't be convicted for, around a third of male college students said they would. If you ask about rape (obviously the same thing but worded differently) 13% said yes.

THIRTEEN PERCENT. And one third if you worded it differently.

That is a men problem. And that's educated men in a Western culture. Put a man in a misogynist, violent culture and somewhere there are no consequences, it's ubiquitous. In Papua New Guinea it's around 80% DV rate. Rape in war is everywhere.

The mayor was truthful, not unusual.

It is a men problem. Clearly. For you and a few posters maybe, thankfully not in the real world.

more than1 in 100 men finds children sexually attractive. is that so? (genuinely haven't researched it, so no idea if you are making that up entirely)

Even if it's true, and of course it's too high, do you believe it's groups of women employed to fight this? It's disingenuous to portray "men" as the enemy.

It's not a "men" problem because they are not a different race or species!

Whenever people do this #notallmen I like to remind them that we can't tell in advance which men are the dangerous ones. They don't wear signs that say rapist, wife beater or pedophile, and the ones who are those things usually seem normal on the surface, so there's no way to tell. So functionally, it is all men that we have to be wary of. Whatever the percentage of predatory men is, it's obviously enough of them that we simply can't trust men as a general rule. So could people please just give NAMALT a rest.

You have completely missed the point and your post makes little sense as a result.

You are being hilarious. In England too fuck is used everywhere, but the difference between fuck me and fuck you is quite important. Especially when someone says fuck her in a post on a woman being fucked against her knowledge. I don’t need any luck to convince the entire French population, I’m not even trying. It’s blatant though, and if you don’t see it then yabvu.

What's stupid and innacurate is making a statistical claim that the majority of men are "just like us." You made that up from whole cloth and really have no idea what the stats are on this. You've admitted that.

I'd bet he would find it "that bad" if it had happened to him!

Serial killers don't seek to harm the victims or the members of the victim's family. It's just that killing gives them pleasure and is necessary to get what they want.
Right?
If only we tried harder to understand serial killers, we could rid the world of this problem.
Right?

If you genuinely haven't researched it, maybe do before commenting.

People who genuinely have, publish findings. I note you didn't touch the rape research. Just the child sexual attraction statistics. Don't you find those shocking? And the DV statistics. Basically the norm where there are no consequences.

In an ordinary town men were busily engaging with a chat site called ‘Without Her Knowledge’ , manipulating their wives into
all sorts of situations (but others not in rape) for the predatory amusement of hundreds of other men.
In an ordinary town a man was easily able to recruit men to rape his wife. The ones we know about in the trial, ordinary men, men with families, responsible jobs, but also it is suspected that up to 200 men raped GP.
Ordinary men, living fairly close by, taking the opportunity to have sec with an unconscious woman just because they could. Because they thought they could get away with it.

An ordinary town. Ordinary men.

NAMALT but enough are that we take cabs home after dark, don’t like men walking on the pavement behind us at night, don’t feel safe ever walking alone, and so on and so on.
Enough men are like it, or potentially like it, to make all men a focus of suspicion.

The Malteser Box test.

Someone tells you that one Malteser in a box is deadly poison but it is impossible to tell which one. Do you eat a Malteser from the box? NAMALT…

I would assume anyone with that stance is also a rapist. He may even have been involved.

What that man said was despicable; he should lose his job and never hold public office again.

But there is no justification for publicly calling him a rapist.

Just to go one step further with the Malteser analogy.
What would you say if somebody said they hate all Maltesers because they all contain poison? And what would a non-poisonous Malteser say?

I didn't say he was a rapist, just that I personally would think someone was if they voiced that opinion.

He did voice that, so you think he is a rapist.