AIBU in thinking this could spread rapidly to other schools? Parents have to come into school to change NT DCs if they soil themselves.

[CwmYoy]

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/schools-tell-parents-if-your-34349942

It's been a long time coming but I can see it will spread now there are fewer TAs.

As long as SEN needs are taken into account I think it's a good idea.

I'm a nursery teacher and sendco with an autistic child so feel qualified to comment.
Over the last 5-6 years the number of children starting nursery without even an attempt to potty train has risen astronomically. At one point half the class were in nappies. Government ratio in a school nursery is 1:13! We literally did nothing but change nappies. Suprise suprise children made less progress as staff were not available to actually teach. Some parents actually put their kids back in nappies in the summer and they started school wearing them despite us potty training them.
This year we have taken the same route as the article. Some parents have had to delay start to nursery by a few weeks but it was a great incentive. Yes we still have the odd accident but that is normal. We never leave a child in dirty clothes. We now have 2 kids in nappies and both have SEN and appropriate funding. Same with a child in Rec and another in Y1.
If a parent came to me and said 'I'm worried about my child's development, we've tried to potty train and it's just not happening' we would support them but a 'normal' child bursting out of size 8 nappies at age 5 and parents think that this is ok? Nope, not normal at all.
I fully support this change.
Also, my autistic child was toilet trained in the day by 2y3m (still not night dry at 9). My NT child was 2y10m (night dry at 3y3m) so well aware of the range in development.

I wouldn't send a child to school who couldn't use the toilet. That's the whole reason for the rule.

I thought it was normal that a child without an official diagnosis of something/EHCP would have a reduced timetable if they were not fully toilet trained.

However anecdotally, in my experience, any child that is not toilet trained by Reception will have a diagnosis of something neurodivergent by the time they leave in Year 6.

I didn't say anyone was lazy but things have certainly changed. I think things you mention like SureStart Centres probably play a part. There were definitely families living in poverty where I worked in South London in the 80s, there was a lot of unemployment rather than people working multiple jobs. Other people have mentioned the use of disposable nappies delaying toilet training and I agree with this. There were more Special Schools for children with diagnosed conditions and maybe it was easier to get a diagnosis back then.

I don't claim to know the answers but there are a lot of questions.

Well if the parents are working at a distance and therefore not able to attend promptly to attend to their child, maybe they need to rethink their life choices?
That document specifically states that school staff are not obliged to deal with their child's medical needs

If the school is not getting extra funding to pay someone to change nappies, teachers shouldn't be doing it, as that will clearly reduce the time they have to teach, and be detrimental to the education of the other children in the class.

A teacher or TA is not a stranger though. It’s easy to say you’d never let somebody else change your child, but the reality is some disabled children will be incontinent for life and will never have the self-care skills to change themselves independently. If you had a disabled child, or your current children were to become disabled, would you just never have them attend school or be cared for by anybody else? Many disabled children require 24/7 care, it’s not realistic for parents to be able to manage all of that care. It’s necessary for carers and staff at school to change that child in order to support that child to access education and receive the care they need.

Nurseries and schools should be prepared to deal with accidents up until the child is compulsory school age. Once they are Reception age a clear reason as to why they aren't toilet trained should be figured out (SEN, medical issues, lazy/disfunctional parents, behaviour issues). The vast majority of children will be toilet trained by 3/3.5yo.

SEN often is t diagnosed till older than reception age so how can you separate NT from SEN?

Then the parent best get in and sort it!

It's simply not OK to push such basic parental responsibilities onto school staff.

I think schools would be well within their rights to refuse a place, unless their were specific SEN needs.

But that the point they can't refuse a place because it's illegal!!

But what if the parents just... don't? Would the school let the child be soiled all day? Or even for an hour? Surely that is allowing harm?

Is there any sanction for parents who don't answer the phone?

I'll ask again...

Where in the Equality Act does it say that?

Equality Act 2010

I'd argue a child who isn't toilet trained by 5/6 is automatically a SEN child, regardless of whether there are other SEN issues at play.

Google are schools allowed to refuse children in.napppies that will give your answer it comes under disable/disadvantaged children.

I agree for whatever reason they are developmentally delayed.

Obviously haven't read the whole thread but I regularly wet myself up till 11. Mostly because I was afraid of using the toilet (I was in an abusive household and felt vulnerable using the toilet so I avoided going even in school). My parents didn't bother to potty train me properly and I was often wetting/soiling due to anxiety. In fact, I think I soiled till I was in about year 4/5.

Now if my parents had been called to come change me it would have been absolutely terrible and terrifying because of the shame/backlash.

I just think this is a terrible idea and pushes those children in abusive households into more abuse.

OK, crappy wording from me but they bloody should be able to refuse a place, IMO.

Schools aren't anti parents - if a family have been trying for a long period (as they should have been by school start!) and the child is still struggling then that's a potential SEN or medical issue that requires interventions. Of course staff are understanding of such situations BUT the truth is that there are just many parents now who cannot be arsed to potty train and this should not be accepted.

It's so far outside of the realms of educational responsibility it's just ridiculous!

I agree. I'm sorry you had to go through this, but I'd wager a hefty number of those families that this policy would apply to have something going on behind the scenes, which will be absolutely none of the child's fault. But it will almost certainly cause suffering to the child to implement their parents being brought in.

You say it’s ’the truth’ that there are many parents who can’t be arsed to train their children, but is there any actual evidence for this? Is there any research or evidence to show that there are significantly more children who aren’t toilet trained than there were 20 years ago, and any evidence that this is due to lazy parenting? I can’t find any facts or figures which refer to actual data regarding the number of children who aren’t toilet toilet trained, there are a few articles which do give a number such as ‘a quarter of children aren’t toilet trained by four’ but even these don’t actually reference where they are getting their numbers from. There is some anecdotal evidence on this thread of an increase in children who start school in nappies but even then I can’t see anyone specifically referring to to a child or family where the reason was laziness. If there is any actual research or data to show that ‘the truth’ is many parents can’t be arsed to toilet train their children I would be interested to see it.

It may take 3 years for an official diagnosis that is needed for support.
It probably takes experienced teachers/nursery staff 3 weeks to spot a child with SEN, if that.
If school staff had more ownership instead of having to complete reams of paperwork, gather reports from all and sundry and wait months for a panel to decide if they agree with everything they have prepared and observed, things would be a lot better.
We can easily tell which children aren't trained due to additional needs and which aren't trained due to shit parenting.
The number of shit parents has massively increased.
I've found that the parents of SEN children are very accommodating and supportive and will put their children in pants so we can toilet and change easily if needed. The lazy shit parents keep having to be told to put pants on instead of pull ups so we can support training.

That's so sad Nc908070. I'm so sorry you went through that.

It's all very well people saying that parents should be made to come in - but if they don't what happens then? Is the child left to sit in it? What if they take it out on the child for being called in? Either way it's the child that suffers.

In an even more extreme possibility what if they pull their child out of school because of it? Their child potentially misses out on education or even worse ends up being abused like poor Sara Sharif.

https://eric.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/Managing-Bowel-and-Bladder-issues-in-nurseries-colleges-and-schools-2022.pdf

''Parents should not be asked to come into school to assist with changing their child or be expected to take them home to change them. ''

Yes an often SEN needs are not identified until later on partly due to delays in diagnosis. Even without a diagnosis children who may have SEN are entitled to help.

Sadly, a disproportionate amount of children with bladder and bowel conditions end up out of school.

I can certainly reference a family that refused to toilet train their child due to laziness. I can go even better and quote 3.
"If you want to toilet train her you can but I'm not"
"My others were trained at this point but I just couldn't be arsed this time around"
"I know he should be toilet trained but I'm too busy and just can't face it"

Add it this the number who don't want to deal with 'the mess'.
"Ugh I can't deal with piss all over"
"I don't want to yet they'll make a mess"
"The idea of him having wet clothes is horrible. I'd be embarrassed if he wet himself when we were out".

Also those referencing a delay in diagnosis. The article even says 'on the pathway' not not a diagnosis. It's rare to be diagnosed so you. When a I speak to a parent about this the first question I ask is 'do you have any concerns about development/any medical issues'. If yes then we begin to put support in place. All of the above comments were made by families with no developmental concerns.

It is not always Sen children or lazy parents… many children struggle with constipation, which can result in overflows, withholding and other issues, needing laxatives (often for years), missing school going through disimpactation etc.
i am very grateful to all the TAs and teachers deal with this discreetly and without much fuss. Only once was I called into school to change my child (who had been dry and potty trained before school started).
always so easy to have an opinion when you are not in the shoes of that parent…