AIBU in thinking this could spread rapidly to other schools? Parents have to come into school to change NT DCs if they soil themselves.

[CwmYoy]

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/schools-tell-parents-if-your-34349942

It's been a long time coming but I can see it will spread now there are fewer TAs.

As long as SEN needs are taken into account I think it's a good idea.

I can't think which comment you are referring to but if you have taken exception to something, report it and let Mumsnet adjudicate.

If you found changing the nappy of your own DC unpleasant imagine how awful it would be if a teacher had to change him. The parents should be called to come into school to change DC every time. Also due to safeguarding it takes 2 teachers or a teacher and a TA away from the class as 1 adult can't change nappies of DC on their own. Why should the rest of the class be left unsupervised whilst one DC has 2 members of staff changing their nappy? I was a teacher for 20 years and I would have refused to change nappies. Thankfully at secondary school I was never asked to. I don't see why primary teachers should be asked to do so either. It's the parents responsibility.

If we didn't ask children to go to school at just past 3 years this would be far less of a problem.

I don't know what it's like now but the NHS when DS was small was not at all interested in a child being incontinent with bladder and would only see them at age 7. GP literally said to me come back in 2 years when I went along to them when he was in reception. He's 14 now and still has issues. School were convinced he was 'making it up to get out of xxx'. No, he really wasn't.

I'm not a primary teacher, but my friend who works across a MAT with a number of primary schools in this area tells me the number of kids arriving in reception each year not toilet trained is rising, a lot.

I don't think the narrative around toilet training to parents helps. The mantra now is very much "when they are ready" whereas with both my kids it took them a good 3 months to get the hang of it with lots and lots of accidents when they were showing all the signs of readiness. I think the trend of toilet training later does give a very small minority of parents the excuse not to? I also think that when disposable nappies didn't exist it was harder for parents to keep kids in nappies than train and put up with the accidents whereas now this just isn't the case.

It's still the norm in most other countries to be told your child can't go to kindergarten until they are out of nappies.

The question is, what happens if a parent works some distance away from school/can't leave work easily. Obviously if it is happening on a regular basis a care plan needs to be put in place but as a one off? Some years ago now, this happened to me with my youngest (never had an accident in school before, toilet trained) I was at home and got a call from the school to go in and change her. Luckily, I was able to be at school within 5-10 minutes and arrived to find her sat on the toilet where they had left her, looking really vulnerable.

I can see both sides to this as it's unfair to expect regular teaching staff to clean up poo, but what if a child was left sat on a toilet for up an hour or more.

Also it's not as straightforward as SEN/NT it's not aways clearcut at that age or any age.

I was a TA and had to clear up a Y3 child not in nappies. I doubt his parents would have raced in, however desirable that would be.

I’ve only been teaching 15 years (although was a TA before that so working in schools just over 20 years). Were those children you had in nappies in reception developing typically aside from the nappies? The big change I’ve seen whilst teaching is an increase in the number of children with SEN in both mainstream and special school classrooms. I’m not sure why this is, obviously some may be attributed to identifying children earlier but there are also significantly more children whose needs are complex enough that they wouldn’t have been missed 20 years ago and it wasn’t simply the case they were all in special schools; special schools are so full they simply cannot offer places to all who need them so inevitably some very complex children are ending up in mainstream.

I don’t know why that is though, maybe in 20 or 30 years there will be some research into why certain disabilities seem to be on the rise and there will be more answers. I don’t believe the reason is that parents are just too lazy to bother though, or if that really is the case then I suppose that suggests that early help and support for parents isn’t there. Maybe it’s linked to the closure of sure start centres and the rise in inequality, people living in poverty, having to work multiple jobs, poor mental health etc. If parents really aren’t potty training their typically developing children I don’t believe it’s just because they’re too ‘lazy,’ there will be other societal factors at play.

My DS has been incredibly difficult to toilet train. We did everything we possibly could and he still didn’t get it for such a long time. It was so stressful. The school have been patient, kind and supportive and he has still found it embarrassing and upsetting. I can’t imagine how much harder it would have been on him if he had been left in soiled clothing while we were called in to change him.

It’s not always lazy parenting and, regardless of the reason, children should be treated with kindness and dignity.

But he's your DC you should make it your priority to be on call ready to rush in to change him, especially if it happens multiple times a day. It is your responsibility or you should pay someone else to do it for you.

Because it's the law it's not just a silly notion of mine
And yes my severely disabled child was 9 or 10 before he.out of nappies so i understand it's not pleasant But a child who is in nappies at school age is developmentally delayed for what ever reason that is.

My point is this policy induces shame. And to be unable to clean themselves up probably applies to the younger end of school age children. In practice, it means a child would be expected to sit in their own mess until a parent could be contacted and brought to the school. Which we all know could take a while depending on their work situation/location.

Where is the dignity in that? In different circumstances, would you think that would acceptable if it was an elderly relative of yours that was left for an hour or more for example?

It wasn't a problem 40 years ago when children started school nursery at 3.

But if there is a known medical issue causing it, then surely the parent and school should be ensuring a care plan is in place. There should be a suitably trained person there to deal with the soiling. It shouldn't just fall on the shoulders of the teacher at expense of the rest of the class.

This happened 22 years ago with a friends child, if they wanted them to attend school untrained she had to come in whenever there were (daily) accidents. The staff refused to deal with it.

The problem is though that many children with continence issues won't have a medical diagnosis a lot the time they start reception! The Facebook UK children's continence support groups has 18,000 members, and there are a lot of parents posting there about desperately trying to get support for school aged children.

The NHS services either aren't there any more or have massive waiting lists. DC3 is now under a pediatric gastroenterologist aged 5, but we've had to pay privately. A year on from our NHS referral we are still waiting for an appointment date.

I contacted the HV aged 3 and a bit when potty training failed. They told me they didn't have capacity to help and to call the Eric charity helpline instead. I know friends with older DC with much less severe potty training problems who got HV help, but our local HV numbers have been heavily cut since. We did see the GP, but it's not something they have expertise in, and there are no longer any local Bowel and Bladder support groups. It was a year after we first saw the GP before they agreed to refer us for the first blood tests, and only at that point did the NHS consultant referral go in. DC3 had already started school before then.

We are fortunate enough to have private insurance, so had seen a private consultant to get the paperwork in place before DC3 started school. More disadvantaged children just won't have got far enough in the medical system to be able to prove medical need, so it will disproportionately disadvantage them.

If a parent had a child with a different disability would you say the same? If a child who uses a wheelchair couldn’t access the playground due to a step would you expect the parents to rush to school multiple times a day to help him/ her on and off the playground? What about a child with diabetes requiring their blood sugar to be tested, carbs counted and insulin administered? Should the parents have to come to the school and manage all of that?

If a child has additional support needs arising from a medical condition or disability it should not be on the parents to manage, all children are entitled to an education and it is up to the school and LA to ensure that the child is at a school which is able to support those needs. If the school cannot reasonably do this the needs should be outlined on an EHCP and the LA should find and fund a school that can.

I was referring to myself as an adult when I said I'd clean myself up. I know that wouldn't be as easy for children.

In my own experience of school (any issue, not toileting), the other children and teachers would make sure that a child felt shame even if they were competent to clean themselves up, or if a teacher did it. Even if the teacher was nice, the other kids would never let you forget it.

I have had a child with toileting issues for medical reasons. I took them out of school and home schooled them until surgery sorted it out. I wouldn't have wanted them to have to deal with those issues at school for their own sake. They didn't soil themselves but would have needed substantial support in other ways. I couldn't expect that of the school unless they had a support worker.

But if you were working with very small children rather than secondary aged children would you really allow them to sit.in their own waste products ?
I font think anyone relishes that but it happens with young kids.

I think it's a common sense rule to be honest.

I wouldn't ever allow a stranger to change my child's nappy anyway, no matter how old they were.

I’m not too sure what my feelings are on this idea. I change this age children daily and have no issue doing so, but it does make it tricky to have enough staff to take care of the other children. If there were accidents in the multiples per day, the staffing just isn’t there to accommodate that. I’m not sure what the solution is. Calling parents from work is not practical, the child should be changed asap.

Then we need support workers in place for this sort of thing, whose job description it is to deal with these things.

You would rather they would sit in their own poo than be changed by a staff member in school? How is that in their best interest?

Well you would hope so.

You are correct it does happen, but only on very rare occasions. Sitting the child on the toilet and pulling their trousers and underwear down would be reasonable. To expect the teacher to attend to that several times a day is entirely unreasonable.