AIBU in thinking this could spread rapidly to other schools? Parents have to come into school to change NT DCs if they soil themselves.

[CwmYoy]

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/schools-tell-parents-if-your-34349942

It's been a long time coming but I can see it will spread now there are fewer TAs.

As long as SEN needs are taken into account I think it's a good idea.

Well I’d have to leave my class to change a nappy.
I’s rather be teaching than mopping up shit, but there we go.

we have been toilet training my daughter for 2 years and she still regularly has wee in her pants. Neurotypical and generally a smart girl. Would you like to call SS?

Diet, screens, lack of exercise, washing machines, disposable nappies, cheap.clothes, everything in life has to be easy so if potty training takes a bit of time then the child isn't ready, rather than needing a bit more parental patience and perseverance, mothers working more so not at home to do the potty training, general infantilisation if children of all ages being seen as less capable than previous generations

This is an UK-problem, sad state of affairs when children start school earlier than developmentally called for. Nothing to be done about it, I am afraid, they decide what they decide, we shall have to meet their demands.

Personally I think this situation has drastically got worse since the children's centres closed

You can't win on MN. If you stay home (and live on?), or work locally for crappy wages and choose poverty you're slated.

If you have a commute and work somewhere that pays a decent wage you get slated because you can't pop into school. I can't imagine anyone in a city like London, or indeed rurally, that can decide how far away their employer is.

Not everyone has the luxury of life choices, or can leave their work to attend school multiple times daily...not sure how long an employer would be happy with that for. What if you're a nurse on a ward, or a teacher yourself?

Fair enough, but it’s still just an anecdotal story on an internet forum, you could be anybody making up quotes about anybody. I accept you may also be quoting real people but that’s why I’m wondering if there is any actual evidence or research or data around this? I haven’t seen anything referencing the swathes of children not toilet trained due to lazy parenting that couldn’t just as easily be a person or organisation making up quotes and data to fit their agenda, which is why genuine research, evidence or data from an unbiased source would be helpful.

Teachers are there to teach, not clean and change children who should be toilet trained before they start school. All kids have accidents now and again which is understandable, when my children were growing up this was not a problem, I didn't know of any kids starting school not toilet trained, unless the child has valid reasons for not going to the toilet, it seems like lazy parenting to me.

This is not quite right. Schools aren't allowed to discriminate on the grounds of a protected characteristic and only disability is a relevant here. You would need to prove that they were still in nappies due to a disability and as many pp have commented it's often really difficult to prove at such a young age.You wouldn't be able to use age as the grounds for discrimination because the government's own guidance recommends training from 18 months and none of the other protected characteristics apply.

All I can tell you is that it’s been doing the rounds for the twenty two years I’ve been teaching for.

My child was q late and only just toilet trained by age 4, luckily still several months before she started school. If she had not been sorted before her school start date I would have delayed it as I believe children should be toilet trained before starting school.

In our reception class, 5 out of 26 started not toilet trained. 2 have ? SEN, but other 3 seem to fall under the CBA brigade. 1 in particular told us 'I want to wear big boy pants but mummy said no', so on changing we offered choice of pull ups or pants. He chose pants, was dry all day apart from 1 accident, and on pick up we told the mum, she went mad ' i told you put him in pull ups'. So now we are in ridiculous situation of him changing into pants as soon as comes in, and then back into pull ups just before pick up, he now does it himself. Dreading that he will now sit in pull ups through the holidays, although hopefully will use them like pants and go to the toilet.

I appreciate that and I’m not trying to discredit you. I am also a teacher and haven’t experienced anything like this, but obviously different schools will cater for different cohorts. I’m not denying that there will be parents too lazy to train their children out there, of course there will, there are parents who do far worse things not potty training a child isn’t exactly extreme. I’m just questioning whether there are suddenly huge swathes of these parents and children. You say it’s been doing the rounds for the 22 years you’ve been teaching, which suggests it isn’t anything new? The media and some of the posters on this thread would have you believe that there is an epidemic of children who aren’t potty trained purely due to parental laziness starting school and that this is an entirely new issue, whilst there doesn’t seem to be any data or research to actually evidence this.

What can be seen in data is that the number of children with a disability has increased as has the proportion of children with an EHCP. To me that suggests maybe, if there is an increase in children starting school in nappies, it’s due to this increase in children with SEN, many of whom will attend mainstream school as you can’t typically attend a special school until you have an EHCP and even if you have an EHCP most special schools are at capacity and can’t take all of the children needing a place. Again there is data out there to show that special schools are at capacity and that there are children out there needing a place without one.

Where is the data or research to show the increase in parents refusing to potty train due to laziness? Not just the handful of anecdotes to show these parents TAs exist, but the evidence to show they exist in far, far greater numbers than they did a few decades ago, to the point it’s becoming a massive problem for reception teachers.

I work for a local authority in School Improvement. Over the last 10 years the numbers of children starting Reception not toilet trained have increased every year. It is quite an issue for some of our primary schools- in the most deprived areas.

I thought education was only compulsory from term following 5th birthday? That, also doesn't have to mean school, just that parents have to ensure their children are receiving an education. Therefore, it could be said that a child thats not toilet trained at reception should be refused until they are, either 5 and matured to the requirements or actually it becomes parental responsibility to educate not a schools until they are ready? Obviously, it is not including additional needs, but even then, in mainstream, it's not a teachers job. Parents should be responsible for ensuring needs are met.

Well no because again it's illegal to refuse a non toilet trained child .

When I was struggling with potty training ds1 my mum told me that in the 1980's children had to be potty trained before starting playgroup but many parents would put their child in pants for the session and hope for the best, then back into nappies later on.

One of my dc has learning disabilities and was in nappies until the Easter holidays of reception. In the 1980's he would have been in special needs school but now lots more children with learning disabilities are in mainstream school.

I think the vast majority of children in nappies in reception have some kind of special need. I think the lack of HV and sure start centres hasn't helped either.

MN is very, very unpleasant about children with continence issues. It is generally assumed ‘lazy’ parents are at the root of this.

And wagon wheels were a four feet wide?

I agree. This philosophy of a child is not ready to toilet train if it takes more than a weekend does not help. Some children learn quickly whatever you do. Some take a lot longer to get it. It is why it is called toilet training. Some children do need lots of help to get it.

And also disadvantaged children which will include late to toilet train children
But even so any child who has reached school aged for whatever reason and is not toilet trained clearly has an additional need.

Many disabilities and people who are neuro divergent are not diagnosed at that age. I don't know how you could possibly ensure that you weren't discriminating against children with disabilities.

Thankfully my kids' school doesn't do this, as I am teaching 30 minutes away. When my son had diarrhoea it took me most of an hour to get to him. It would have been incredibly cruel if they had made him stay dirty for that whole time.

People were also less likely to be open about these things in the past, so it might not be that it didn't happen, just people didn't talk about it.

Sorry if I wasn’t clear, I think that there is a lot of froth and indignation about this topic. Every generation is convinced that this generation has lazy parents, awful kids, is doomed for all time. It isn’t true. I don’t think there are any more children suffering with continence issues than there ever were, maybe it’s slightly increased because of the pandemic but I think it’s a big moral panic over nothing.

I taught a child like that as an NQT. Had to cope with poo on child and on the floor by myself, while looking after 30 other children, 10 of whom had SEN, on several occasions. SLT were not able to to support at all, and complained that I was spending too long dealing with the poo issues and not enough time teaching.
Maybe other teachers can change pooey children whilst simultaneously teaching a class, but I found it very difficult.