AIBU in thinking this could spread rapidly to other schools? Parents have to come into school to change NT DCs if they soil themselves.

[CwmYoy]

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/schools-tell-parents-if-your-34349942

It's been a long time coming but I can see it will spread now there are fewer TAs.

As long as SEN needs are taken into account I think it's a good idea.

@Italiandreams
Your assumption that those not potty trained by the reception have SEND is flawed, there's surveys that show that more and more parents don't train their children because they wait for them to be ready and some don't even try because they think it's the school job to do it.

So the issue absolutely is mostly with healthy children.

The 'cut off' should be whether extra assistance for that child is in place. I think most of us would agree, other than odd accidents, a child be in control of their bowels and bladder by the time they go to school. Those that aren't should be assessed for medical reasons and perhaps deferred for a year.

That may sound harsh, but why should the rest of that class be a third behind in their education.

I have come across one child who isn’t fully toilet trained by the start of reception where it hasn’t been due to some form of SEN or medical issue.

In that case the young boy had a very chaotic home life. School worked with outside services to help get support for the family but as in most cases that was limited.

are people really thinking that child should have been neglected in school as well as home?

It's out of the child control but not out of the parents control, unlike when a child needs hypo.

Insisting that the school should give the support parents don't give simply isn't sustainable for various reasons, as some already explained.

Teachers can't sacrifice all their time and the other children to deal with the healthy ones not potty trained, there's no resources to hire more help, so it inevitably fall into the parents hand to fix since they're the problem to begin with.

Isn't there a problem with lack of teachers too? If people try to force them to completely take this responsibility then even less people will want to be teachers.

Yes, they deal with the occasional accident even though it's not their job, this situatuon goes way beyond just accidents though.

@Sirzy If it was just one child then of course accomodations should be made. But the report in the Nursing Times and the one from Wales are suggesting it is around a third of the class. That is just not sustainable.

If a school has a third of a class with no additional needs having such issues then there is a much bigger issue going on locally.

I simply don’t believe they aren’t counting things like very occasional accidents in there.

I was simply making a point based on what another poster said.

Your experience won't be the same as that of other teachers, so it's irrelevant by default, you don't speak for them.

You say severe learning difficulties, which means it'll be very clear and apparently they need support, not the same as clearly healthy children who shouldn't need the support.

By trying to force the school to support all children, the ones who need and the ones who shouldn't need support, it'll just make things worse for everyone involved.

By trying to help everyone the teacher won't be able to help anyone, much less teach properly.

It's simply not sustainable in the long run try to force everything into the teacher and school.

Extra assistance will not be in place before they start school in general. Waiting lists are huge and some parents may not realise. My own ND still did not have support before school and I was incredibly proactive and recognised things far before most parents would.

I also work in an underprivileged school, and while there are growing numbers of children with SEND which is a separate issue, I don’t recognise the lazy parent issue. There are some of course, but some are also just struggling. Lack of support, many parents have SEND of their own.

The articles often include nursery age children and talk about not being completely toilet trained, not still in nappies. That is quite different . Is it ok for teacher to be dealing with this on their own? Of course not. But the answer is to support people, not judge and punish children. Fund our services . Survival of the fittest as some people seem to be suggesting I’m afraid is an idea that repulses me. We should look after the vulnerable in society.

Just to clarify, is it a third of the class starting in nappies/or not potty trained or a third of the class not school ready (which involves a whole mix of skills )?

For some people it really is a race to the bottom isn’t it. How sad is it we have a situation whereby people are arguing about which children should be supported and which not.

@Italiandreams Wouldn't it be better for everyone though, when it became apparent at the very start of school the child wasn't ready or needed assistance, for that child to defer a year until funding was in place?

Better for who? The child who missed a years education not because it was right for them but because it made things easier for others?

@Italiandreams
Fund our services
Easier said than done, where the funds will come from? They'll have to take it from somewhere else, it can take months or years for such thing to happen

Alternative, make parents pay it, be pay directly to school or through taxes, cue vast majority of parents complaining and this idea falling apart.

Making parents do their job is the easiest solution, there's no perfect choice.

But fact is that try force teacher and school to deal with it simply won't work, it's not sustainable, there's no arguing against this.

Keep mentioning child suffering won't magically fix the situation.

The reports said in nappies not potty trained. But you could argue that those that aren't emotionally developed would be better served waiting until the assistance they need is in place.

Yup, truly lazy parents (and tbh it’s not laziness, it's a whole host of issues) are about 10 (again in the whole school). Children with EHCPS ? 37!! The other local schools tend to suggest our school to parents once it becomes apparent they can't "support" their child's needs. One particular school sent us 5 children so far... they do have better academic results. I wonder why.

I said it before, no matter how much people bang on about lazy parents, the real agenda is marginalising and excluding SEND and other vulnerable children, wrapped up in a more palatable way.

Many reception classes now have a third of children with some kind of SEND need. This isn't unusual.

The government funding hasn't kept up with the rising needs.

Let me make a comparison yes.

Another thread was about healthy people using bathroom for disabled, and how they shouldn't do that.

This situation is the same, it's not the teacher job to do the parents job, the more nappies of healthy children they deal with the less they can help children with SEND

A healthy children shouldn't need such support to begin with, by focusing on them you take away resources from children who need it.

This isn't a race, it's simply about using resources the right way for the children who need it.

Resources aren't infinite, they'll come from somewhere, and the children who will end suffering the most is the one who need it the most.

1. That's not how it works.

1. How long should a child be deferred for? Let's say 2 years for assessment and diagnosis. Then the EHCP process which can take at least 6 months plus all the other delay tactics, wooly wordings etc. Then the funding, Then they get rejected, have to attend mediation, go to tribunal . At least another year.

How many years is it acceptable to you for a child to miss , until everything is in place?

@BlueSilverCats
I said it before, no matter how much people bang on about lazy parents, the real agenda is marginalising and excluding SEND and other vulnerable children, wrapped up in a more palatable way.

Riiiight, there's always some eeeeeeevil plan behind it, I guess the surveys showing the rise of parents who wait for the child to be ready and parents who think it's the school job to do it must be all a lie then.

Yup. Since such a survey doesn't exist.

75% (or something) of parents BELIEVE the reason this is happening is because parents think it's not their job to do it. That's a belief held by others, not a statement made by actual parents in nappies.

50% of parents (and similar amount of teachers, ironically) believe that they aren't SOLELY responsible for potty training.

So where exactly is this survey and data that shows parents believe they are not responsible for potty training and can you link to it?

No, not always. Some DC won’t be able to defer a year e.g. those who become CSA in the January will only be able to defer a term. Some DC won’t have an EHCP within a year e.g. if their parents have to appeal both a refusal to assess and refusal to issue. Sometimes it can also be easier to collate evidence to prove DC need additional SEP/an alternative placement/more funding if the child is in school. Some DC are developmentally very much ready to start school except for being toilet trained and remaining in nursery wouldn’t be developmentally appropriate in every other area. And, yes, some DC have chaotic home lives beyond the child’s control that mean being in school is better for them.

LAs could use the millions upon millions they spend defending indefensible SENDIST cases when they know in more than 98% of the cases the parents’ appeals will be upheld.

I remember someone mentioning and posting something about survey, won't look for it though.

The thing though? That's not really relevant, because your experiences are still only yours, so you don't get to talk for other teachers, multiple times you keep mentioning your personal anedoctal experiences as if that somehow makes you the authority and judge of this situation, it doesn't.

Also, trying to push everything as some eeeeeevil conspiracy because everyone is out to get SEND children just makes your look silly.

Fact is that unless the child clearly has special needs then it's not the school job to deal with them, parents should potty trained their children, period.

You and others can cry and scream to the heavens all you want, making teachers and school deal with the issue still isn't sustainable.

Fact is, until children are at school, for the vast majority of, SEND will not be diagnosed!

clearly healthy children who shouldn't need the support.

Except you don’t actually know the child is healthy and does not have SEN. As has been explained to you, some won’t have a diagnosis &/or be classed as having SEN when they start school but will go on to be as they move through the school.