AIBU in thinking this could spread rapidly to other schools? Parents have to come into school to change NT DCs if they soil themselves.

[CwmYoy]

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/schools-tell-parents-if-your-34349942

It's been a long time coming but I can see it will spread now there are fewer TAs.

As long as SEN needs are taken into account I think it's a good idea.

Inclusion sounds fantastic on paper, but as others have said the funding and facilities are not their in mainstream. It is unreasonable to put this extra work on to teachers and staff with other roles.

Yes I agree about the HVs

I think this would help

My dc had red books with all the relevant information and perhaps this question was asked as well.

It can't be left to teachers at school or TAs unless it is part of an EHCP and there is a TA employed in that role

Exactly.

we need better pre school support. We need to bring back to village to help raise a child.

Ds is 15 when he was little we had sure start centres. They offered lots of classes and advice sessions including some on potty training. Although HV visits were pretty scarce (iirc 4 standard visits before school age) we could go along a few times a week to the sure start centre where a HV would be available to provide help and signpost where needed.

that is missing now in most communities. If a parent doesn’t work the first proper outside support they access may well be when they take up the nursery hours at 3 or even when they start school at 4.

They really shouldn't be in pull ups at school unless SN

No the extra adults factored in from the required adult to children ratios will. All children at the age will need help going to the loo at some point during the day. Handwashing, bottom wiping sometimes, a small leak change, full on accident….A child in pull up ps will probably only need a change if soiled from poo which would be once in a day. They won’t be continuously legging to the loo for a wee - as they’re in pull ups. They’ll just be getting on with their day unless there is a poo involved.

Poor teacher and TA having to deal with that

But it wouldn’t cost less to put them in specialist provision, children are in mainstream because it’s cheaper! Please don’t think I don’t think there are children in mainstream that should be in specialist provision because there are! I know of non verbal ks2 in mainstream. That isn’t fair in anyone and their needs can not be met. The issue is funding for support. Not where these children are educated. If a child’s needs can be met with the right provision and support in mainstream, they should be in mainstream. If their needs can only be met in specialised provision that is where they should be. We are talking about a funding issue.

I know plenty of parents who literally just can't be arsed with toilet training. Their children don't have ND. They are just lazy arsed parents. Why should it be left up to school to pick up the slack? Almost a third of reception children aren't "school ready" in some areas.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cvglrmg08kgo#:~:text=Prof%20Judy%20Clegg%2C%20a%20speech,about%20child%20development%20in%20England

Not toilet trained, not communicating efficiently and still in strollers.

People can repeat the lazy label to make themselves feel superior all they want, but all it does it make struggling people feel terrible and ostracise others. It certainly solves nothing. We should be asking why and thinking about how we can help and support. There is so little support in the early years now, and those born in covid had very little .

That article blames the pandemic , not lazy parents.

In an ideal world every child would go to school having completed toilet training and it would certainly be my aim for ds to be toilet trained well ahead of starting, but as others have said, at that age SEN may not have been identified and the child may still be too young for assessment. So that's a silly caveat to make in itself. Plus there are many other valid reasons why a child may not have toilet trained at that age such as domestic abuse or other forms of trauma. Those children and their families need time and support to work through those issues first so as others have said you could end up alienating vulnerable parents and end up with kids attendance dropping which is worse long term.

What happens when parents have a commute to and from work? I used to work 40 minutes away from where ds went to nursery and as a single parent there was noone else I could ask to help with that. I'd be livid if my child was left to sit in soiled clothes for 40 minutes until I could make it there to change him. Things like this should be dealt with swiftly to avoid embarrassment or discomfort for the child. Not every parent will be around the corner to facilitate this and let's be honest it will end up being one more thing that women end up doing the lions share of further impacting women's ability to progress in and sustain a career. As a single parent that would solely fall to me and I'd absolutely be disciplined for having to leave work at short notice regularly. So if more parents end up leaving their jobs over toilet training then we have more children living in poverty and parents with vulnerable children of a young age will be disproportionately affected.

I think it's a very unpleasant part of the job but to me the key here isn't expecting parents to leave work to change nappies, it's about the government better resourcing schools to help them address this in a more sustainable way. Otherwise parents are picking up the slack for an underfunded and inefficient education system that is putting our teachers and TAs under silly pressure. For example a referral to a school health visitor to support the parents on toilet training, or hosting toilet training sessions in the school that parents can go to to get support and advice would be a better option as well as having someone employed to support with changing as needed. Ultimately the key is finding out WHY a child isn't toilet trained (incase it's a safeguarding issue) and punishing (which this could easily be seen as) the parent and by default the child is not the way to open those conversations up.

Posted earlier about SIL, she didn’t potty train, or wean child off bedtime bottle because she was both lazy, and didn’t want to “upset” her child.

She expected nursery to potty train. Told family.

She wasn’t too busy, or stressed - plenty of time to care for and ride her horse with elderly parent “looking after” child who presumably had a full nappy til she came home because elderly parent had mobility limits.
can only conclude she had effed priorities and too lazy plan potty training. Only did what she wanted.

So who do you think should have the responsibility of cleaning a child whe repeatedly soils or wets themselves. The teacher and school staff who have plenty other things that is within their contract to do. Or should the parent of the child who isn't continent rearrange their life to deal with it if no extra funding is in place?

We aren't talking about one off accidents here.

People cannot just rearrange their life for it though, which I think you know. And children cannot be expected to sit in soiled clothes waiting for a parent. So unfortunately it does fall to whoever is the responsible adult to hand which is unfortunately school staff. Extra funding won't be put in place if parents continue to pick up the slack created by lack of funding. I've worked in early years and I would NEVER have left a child in soiled clothing or a dirty nappy any more than I'd leave my own ds in that state. The suggestion of it is ludicrous. What happens when children end up with painful nappy rash or are bullied by their peers?

If your child is incontinent, is unable to clean themselves, and there is no staff employed to fulfill that role. Then I'd suggest the child is either not ready for school or the parent does need to change his/her circumstances to be able to deal with it.

Let me just pick you up on this point.
Extra funding won't be put in place if parents continue to pick up the slack created by lack of funding
Should the school pick up the slack because of lack of funding?

The attitude that the parent shouldn't be responsible and could hand over all responsibility for an incontinent child at the school gate is incredibly selfish. You are basically saying that the other 29 kids in that class should get a lower standard of service to accomodate your needs.

I'm very clearly saying that extra funding and resources should be applied if this is a growing issue within schools. Because the alternative is that parents with sen children or children who've experienced trauma or lone parents will be disproportionately affected. Never mind the obvious issues around safeguarding that I've already mentioned.

"Should the school pick up the slack because of lack of funding?" Parents and schools should be working together to demand better resourcing from the government and education authorities.

"The attitude that the parent shouldn't be responsible and could hand over all responsibility for an incontinent child at the school gate is incredibly selfish"

So let's take my situation into consideration shall we- I'm a lone parent with no family support who is ONLY able to afford to provide well for my ds because I have taken a very senior role 40 min away (which are like hens teeth to come by in my sector -a chronically underpaid sector) and I wouldn't be able to cover my bills if I earnt less. To move to another sector would mean earning significantly less. To leave my job would mean raising ds on benefits. I have to be on site 5 days a week due to the nature of my role. If I had a child with SEN too young to achieve diagnosis, or who had been through trauma which they were working through- how would you suggest I rearrange my life to be able to facilitate frequent daytime trips to school? Should I raise ds in poverty to accommodate this? Do I take him away from the structure that he might need to address previous trauma? How long do I do this for? How late should my child start school without affecting his educational outcomes? It's not selfish to want good outcomes for my child and for them not to grow up in poverty.

The problem with policies like this is that they disproportionately negatively affect genuine people who will struggle. Obviously there will be some parents who choose not to toilet train for whatever reason, that is a safeguarding issue and the school should be pursuing it as such not just telling people just not to send their child to school. God knows what else would be missed if they did that and children could be put in extremely vulnerable positions as a result. Incontinence is a marker for abuse and neglect. Schools SHOULD be managing this whilst simultaneously be making appropriate referrals.

https://www.nursingtimes.net/opinion/with-one-in-four-school-starters-not-toilet-trained-parents-need-support-26-09-2024/

I agree wholeheartedly that support is needed. I do not agree that until that support is in place that the other pupils should suffer.

Why should the other pupils lose a third of their education, especially when they are just starting to read and write. Is their rights being eroded by entering year 2 so far behind where they should be. What if these children needing extra help don't have assistance in year 2. Should the rest of that class be so far behind they never catch up.

Will their ability to get well paid jobs be compromised so that parents like you let the school pick up the slack to allow you to have a better standard of living.

@ARealitycheck how far are you willing to extend that though?

The potty training issue is pretty clear cut, so fair enough.

What about the kids that need a 1 2 1 , but for whatever reason they aren't diagnosed yet, their funding isn't enough, or the parents are in tribunal fighting for it?

Do we also go, well school is underfunded and understaffed so , unless you're ready to come in and be his/hers 1 2 1 then your child can't attend our school. Would that be ok?

Or asking parents to come in to do glucose checks and administer insulin? Depending on the circumstances , a hypo can take an adult out of their normal duties for 15/30 minutes.

If the childs needs are such that 1 to 1 is the only option, then again should the rest of the class suffer to give him/ her that. Dealing with medical emergencies such as hypo are a completely different thing. You would not expect that to happen daily.

@ARealitycheck some kids have hypos not just daily, but 3 times a day or even more. Or one that lasts an hour (that's rarer) and we can't get them out.

However it's becoming clearer what your outlook on this (and children with SEND)is , and that we will never agree.

Funding is available if a child has diabetes. But a child having several attacks a day needs better management. That is an NHS job.

Flawed comparison, children that have hypo are far and between, you might have one, maaaybe two in a single classroom, even if they need it 3 times a day or more it's their right to have support for that and it'll not really be frequent enough to get in the way.

We're talking about healthy children who are not potty trained, their situation is not similar because they'll need change of nappies at random times and multiple times a day, the more children like that the more time the teacher will waste, why? Because parents are useless and didn't do their job.

You can't compare something that a child literally needs to live and is out of their control against something that is completely avoidable and happens due to the parents choice.

How do you decide who is healthy? How do you decide who is legitimately allowed to be in nappies/pull ups due to medical or SEND and who is just lazy parented? What is the exact age cut off? I would say with just a couple of exceptions, those not toilet trained in reception have undiagnosed SEND issues. And with more support for parents rather than judgement more of those would probably be trained. But having a NT and ND child, the process is very different support is often needed for ND children, especially for parents that maybe don’t even realise their child is developing at a slightly different rate/ path.

But both are out of the child’s control.

in the cases where it is purely parental issues then those children probably need school support even more than their peers because of the issues they face at home. To punish children for the issues at home is to make them even more vulnerable

@Tsama sorry, I can't take anything you say seriously after your claim of parents getting their children into special school/class so they don't have to potty train.

As an aside , my experience of actually working in a school(in a deprived area with a high number of SEN, PP , FSM and EAL children) does not reflect this narrative of "vast number of children starting school in nappies".

We have 7 in the whole school, all with severe learning difficulties, all waiting for panel and places in a special school. Some of them for more than a year. No amount of shaming , shouting and holier than thou attitudes will help those kids and their parents, or suddenly improve all their needs, because Suzie on Mumsnet thinks it's lazy and shameful and there should be funding and special school places and pink fluffy unicorns dancing on rainbows.