AIBU in thinking this could spread rapidly to other schools? Parents have to come into school to change NT DCs if they soil themselves.

[CwmYoy]

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/schools-tell-parents-if-your-34349942

It's been a long time coming but I can see it will spread now there are fewer TAs.

As long as SEN needs are taken into account I think it's a good idea.

We will have to agree to disagree. Christmas has nothing to do with it.

Agree to disagree, and christmas has everything to do with it, I have more to my life than posting on Mumsnet

It isn’t about whether someone has more to life than posting on Mumsnet or not.

It is because not everyone will remember all details from a random internet discussion, people have lives and priorities, it can be easy to forget details from a discussion

I wonder if the right to an education for all children is partly to blame for this. Placing some children with needs such as incontinence requiring changing in specialised schools was the norm. Today they attend regular schools. Would more parents ensure their child was potty trained if there was the (wrongly) associated stigma of their child going to special school.

@ARealitycheck
Taking into account that main cause is seemingly parents purposely not doing the training or thinking the school should do it, I honestly don't see that working.

Hell, I can even see some negligent parents purposely trying to put their children in the special school / class just for the fact that they'll assume the teachers there will potty train their children and other stuff that should be a parents job.

I also don't see the stigma coming back cause most people see things different nowadays, even if putting these children in specialized school was still the norm I don't think people would see it as bad as it was in the past.

That was silly of the school. If they had sent the child home, that would have been an unlawful exclusion which would have got them into all sorts of trouble.

You really have no idea what you are talking about do you?

Special classes? Do you mean SRPs or SEN units? Very few schools have them and there is a lot of paperwork involved and evidence that the child can be moved to one of those and places are very limited.

SEN schools? Ha! Again , waiting lists for years, even with a diagnosis and an EHCP.

No one gets their kid into one of those because they can't be arsed to potty train. Ffs.

Such as sensible response and I totally agree

So how do we decide at 4 which chidren have severe enough SEND to be allowed in school to toilet trained? I mean, most will not have been anywhere a paediatrician yet as the waiting list is so long. But many of you seem very able to judge a child’s need and whether they have lazy parents. They could be all sorts of reasons , medical, sensory, cognitive understanding, many of which will not be obvious. In my twenty years of teaching I have met a few lazy parents but they are very much in the minority. I think maybe if we stopped judging and started being a little more curious and solution focused we might do better at supporting school staff, parents and children .

Would it be cheaper/easier/better to have more health visitors or similar to help the parents who are struggling with things like toilet training their 2-3 year olds? I know when my now 18 year old was little we had HV doing regular development checks, giving out advice etc, and if course we were at the sure start centre most days so could have support from the staff there as well. The support available got less with each of my children and since covid it's gone downhill again. I had lots of helpful advice (and some not so helpful) about potty training, including putting the child in pants under their pull up to start with so they can feel what it's like to be wet.

Only one of my dc went to school in nappies but he would have had a note from the consultant if necessary. Although in the 1990's he probably wouldn't have survived. My 2nd child is still waiting for an autism assessment aged 16, despite me continually raising concerns since he was 1 year old, and him seeing many different health professionals when he was little. He was dry about 6 months before going to school so didn't need support on that front but that's just an example of how children can have SEN but not diagnosed for years.

Personally I think parents who don't potty train their children because they can't be bothered won't be trying to get their children into special needs school. That requires far more effort than potty training.

I've just had a thought, but do you think the increasing amount of nursery fees mean that some parents think that outsourcing potty training should be included in the price? I mostly only used the funded hours so had fairly low expectations on what I thought nurseries should do. I know I have higher expectations for an attraction to be good if I've paid a lot for entry. Also if I've paid £4.95 for me (yes that's the adult price) to sit and watch my dc at soft play then I'm expecting a clean floor, comfy chairs and decent drinks/snacks available. If it's free for parents to attend and £7 each for the dc then I'm happy with a lot less.

If you read what I put, years back children with issues like discussed would generally not get a placement in mainstream school. They would go into what were then known as 'special schools'. Today with mainstream schooling being the aim, are these children attending places that are not suitable for their needs and should we see a return to 'special schools'.

If the prospect of having a non potty trained child meant the likelihood they attend these schools, would the perceived 'shame' incentivise parents to ensure potty training.

You're advocating potty training being a pointer for a special school place. 😂We see children with severe SEN struggling to get a special school place, not a chance in hell you’d get one for not being potty trained. Parents are fighting for special school places not the reverse.

Read what I put. I was likening back to the time before mainstream education was offered to children with issues. Would it be better if there was more availability, more spaces for children needing nappies changed etc, in specialised settings.

And yes, being incontinent at school should be a sign the child is not emotionally or physically developed enough to be in mainstream.

There’s no money for enough special school places as it is or for provision for SEN in mainstream. Special school places for toilet training is a ludicrous suggestion.

Yet placing incontinent children in mainstream classes with no suitable staff or facilities is a good idea? All at the expense of the exisitng staff and pupils.

I put up what I thought was a reasonable suggestions, but instead of nay saying everything. What would you do to solve the situation like is happening in the opening post?

Of course children who need help with toileting can be in mainstream! Many children with the right support thrive! The barrier for toiletting could be one of many things that doesn’t impact other areas of leaning and development. Why would we want to segregate children unnecessarily and deny them opportunities to be with their peers. I am shocked at this statement actually! Of course there is a place for children who need specialised provision, and there are children in mainstream who can’t cope, and should be in a different setting. But continence issues alone are so far from being in indicator of this! What needs to happen is children being able to access proper medical care, so barriers are identified and support provided. Not to be in a separate setting.

Continence issues which the child can deal with themselves, totally fine. Exactly the same as an adult with the same. One that needs somebody to clean and change them of course is need of additional help, and mainstream schooling doesn't have the facility or staffing to deal with it.

@ARealitycheck I was replying to Tsama. Her quote mentions you at the start , hence the confusion.

Wet (and soiled pants )are common in early years with toilet trained children ,if anything being in pull ups causes less hassle. They aren’t that common(1 or2) and all staff are suitable to change pants or pull ups, it’s not hard. Early years already has specific ratios of adult to children because of the higher need.

An odd wet accident is to be expected, but by and large most kids by school age are dry. What is being described in the OP is children still in nappies due to not being potty trained.

Interestingly, that is also mentioned in the survey everyone is mentioning.

22% of parents never had a HV visit and 63% only had between 0-2 visits before their child started Reception.

There could be all sorts of reasons that a child needs support with toilleting. Should a child in a wheelchair only be specialised provision? Should an able child with autistic traits ? Should a child with medical issues or constipation? I agree the current situation it is not ideal, but the funding required for them to attend specialist provision as you suggest should be spent in support in mainstream for many of these children, not segregating them.

And that would take 1 change with little difference to going to the loo. Pull up down, wipe with wipe fresh pull up from bag both of which they will be encouraged to fetch themselves.

Does the teacher take a child to the loo and wipe them afterwards? We are talking about children not continent, not a child who has had an accident from forgetting to go when playing with their friends once in a blue moon.