AIBU in thinking this could spread rapidly to other schools? Parents have to come into school to change NT DCs if they soil themselves.

[CwmYoy]

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/schools-tell-parents-if-your-34349942

It's been a long time coming but I can see it will spread now there are fewer TAs.

As long as SEN needs are taken into account I think it's a good idea.

In the past lots of children with special needs were toilet trained early. I cared for a 3 year old boy who was non verbal and had autism. He would go to the toilet himself when he needed to but needed some verbal prompting about next steps e.g. remember to wipe yourself now. But he was close to being fully independent.
And children with downs syndrome (far more common then) were all toilet trained younger.
The children not toilet trained young were those with serious delays or profound disabilities.
Those children who were not diagnosed with SEND in the eighties and are now, were all toilet trained young. They were probably the kids that took a lot of work to get it. But back then we just accepted some children learned toilet training very easily, and some it took a lot of hard work to get them there.
I think they key is to start young. If you wait until they are older you hit the no stage, and then it can be tough.

@MerryMaker
I'm wokepilled by the liberal collegiate elites as one can be, but even I have to say at times this generation and some people of the previous generation are perhaps too soft.

Did our understanding change and some aspects of parenting had to change because they were definitely bad? Absolutely, but I feel at times people treat their children as if anything can be abuse and will damage them for life.

One thing I noticed is that over the decades people are more and more infantilized, you can be around 20 and still treated as a teenager, some teenagers treated small children, and small children treated as babies.

Due to that sometimes children with special needs are the ones who suffer the most because they're treated as if they're completely incapable of anything.

You mentioned children with downs syndrome who were potty trained, nowadays a lot of parents raise them way better than it would have been some decades ago, but I can't help but feel others raise them worse than it was.

Sure decades ago a lot of children with downs syndrome, among other things like autism for example, would be raised pretty badly, but even so I feel most parents still tried teaching them some life skills so they can look out for themselves, after all they didn't have much of a choice since no support and such, I can't help but feel cases were parents don't teach them anything got worse over time, as if just sneezing in their general direction would cause them to fall apart.

As much as our understading on raising children advanced, sometimes I feel it regressed too from looking at what some parents do.

Potty training is perfect example of that, parents had to start it early, no excuses or whining, it was expected and necessary, now parents are either too negligent and lazy or too soft and don't want to hurt the children feelings.

@Tsama Every generation tries to correct the mistakes of the generation before, and makes lots of new mistakes instead.
The later toilet training started to happen because women's magazines, which used to be really influential, started to spread the idea in the eighties that harsh toilet training could damage a child's sexuality. Ideas taken from Freud. The parents who were harsh with toilet training tended to be harsh with everything, and they will have caused some damage to their children. But it made ordinary loving parents afraid.
I think the main part that has been forgotten is the training part. The myth that all children are toilet trained in 3 days is very damaging. Its like the myth there was for a while that breast feeding is easy. All of these things are easy with some children, and very hard with others.

That's unfair i trained my severely autistic son when he was nine or ten I wanted to start much earlier but it was his special school WHO said he wasent ready and one of the school nurses even inferred that
If toilet training lead to serious behavioural problems he could be suspended bearing on mind this was a special school for children with complex disabilities, in essence it was easier for them for him to remain in nappies and with it neinga special school they had loads of staff that changed the children.

@x2boys I would have done the same as you. But such a shame the school took that approach.

Children used to be thought ready to toilet train when you went to change or check a nappy at usual nappy changing time and it was dry. This meant the child had the physical ability to hold on. But they had to be taught to recognise the feeling of holding on and let go on the toilet and potty.

@MerryMaker
You make some fair points I didn't take into account.

Funny that before it was influential women magazine, now it's fucking facebook for many mothers lol, I guess people never change.

Fucking Freud ruined a lot of things, it's baffling many still take him seriously since as far as I know a lot of his ideas are long debunked.

As for training, I feel that worse than training being easy or hard, is that many parents think children will magically learn the skills at their time when we need to teach them, and I mean in general, not just potty training.

@x2boys
I feel your case is diffent though, it wasn't simply your choice like for a lot of parents, you was literally told by an authority on what to do, which in practice was probably wrong and just made things worse in the long run.

@MerryMaker
I have to agree with some posters basically said, modern nappies are convenient but bad for children, they don't learn to hold cause they rarely feel they soiled themselves, which makes potty training harder.

Kinda funny, modern nappies are sold as being better for children cause they'll be dry and whatever else they promote, but when you actually think about it they're doing a disservice for the children, cause them feel soiled has its purpose.

@x2boys
Just to make my point clear, the entire time I'm talking about parents who chose to do potty training later or not do it at all.

With the most common reason being they think they should wait for the child to be "ready" or they're negligent and think the school should do it or some other pathetic excuse.

Your situation and anyone similar aren't part of the equation, parents like you got the short end of the stick either because of poor understanding at the time or because the authority was simply incompetent.

I honestly would be baffled if anyone tried to judge you since you're a victim just as much as your son, after all you was following the advice of someone who should know better, but unfortunately when the system fail sometimes it do worse than just being negligent, instead it actively make things worse.

if it's not a severe case, can a child with SEND be potty trained? From what I understand they can.

That depends on the person’s individual needs. And also what you mean by severe. Of course some DC with a LD can be toilet trained. Although some who are don’t toilet trained until later than typical development. But there are also DC without a learning disability who aren’t/can’t be toilet trained. Teen DS1 doesn’t have a learning disability. He does have other complex needs. He has EOTAS/EOTIS now, but he started primary in mainstream. Trust me, toilet training would be much easier. If it was possible, the NHS wouldn’t have undertaken the procedures they have and the LA wouldn’t have funded a specialist changing table at home.

wouldn't severe cases of SEND be put in special schools and such?

Many DC with more complex SEN are in mainstream. Either because that is what their parents want (there is a right to a mainstream education except in very limited circumsrances. Not being toilet trained doesn’t fall into that category.) or because the LA has failed to name SS in an EHCP (see the mess with SENDIST).

@BrightYellowTrain
Thanks for the info, I'm not really in the know when it comes to this kind of thing.

To be fair I argue this situation isn't relevant to children with SEND, I really don't see goverment changing the rules for them at all.

At least I honestly don't see schools and goverment making a issue over them since children with SEND have always been the minority to begin with, so this has to be over healthy children that aren't potty trained for one reason or another.

One reason I'm sure that is the case is due to the fact if any school tried doing that it's basically asking for a lawsuit that they would surely lose.

One reason I'm sure that is the case is due to the fact if any school tried doing that it's basically asking for a lawsuit that they would surely lose.

Unless you add "SEND children are excluded from the policy, with a letter from the consultant ".

We're talking 3,4 and at most 5 yos here.

Considering there are waiting lists of 2 years in some(most) areas to even see someone, which kids will end up being most affected by policies by this?

I agree, it would be disability discrimination.

As has been said earlier in the thread, some children won’t be diagnosed or recognised as having SEN (because a diagnosis isn’t required for a child to be considered to have SEN &/or be protected by the Equality Act) when they start nursery or school but go on to be when older. So, some DC who are seen to be healthy and without SEN may not actually be.

@BlueSilverCats
Right, I forgot someone did mention that.

But then it goes back to my other point, the problem is healthy children and caused by their parents, which makes authorities take action.

This is a damn if you do damn if you don't situation because it can only go two ways:

Either goverment doesn't do anything, which means more and more healthy children won't be potty trained, which makes teachers and other people pay more attention to them, which not only means teacher has less time to teach, but that they have less time to help children who actually need their help, like children with SEND.

Or they do something, which is what they're doing now, and some children with SEND will suffer cause parents need to get a letter from consultant as fast as possible.

It's basically a no win situation, all that can be done is try cause the least damage possible.

Loads of schools are not accessible to a child that uses a wheelchair. Reasonable adjustments is the get out clause.

I know this might ruffle some feathers but I'll say it anyway, if the child isn't disagnosed or recognised as SEN, doesn't it mean that they're healthy enough that they could be potty trained? Even if that took some extra work?

I also imagine parents who have children with SEN will talk to the school about their situation and how they're waiting for a letter or something, which means they'll get the help they need.

I suspect this will be less of a hard rule as it looks and more to ther teacher / school judgement, to ensure children that need support won't suffer.

After all they're doing this entirely because of useless parents who don't potty train their healhy child.

if the child isn't disagnosed or recognised as SEN, doesn't it mean that they're healthy enough that they could be potty trained?

No. Not for all children. That is quite an ignorant statement.

No school or LA should have a blanket policy of requiring a consultant letter. In other areas related to education (e.g. for education of those unable to attend school), even the government recognises schools/LAs shouldn’t be waiting for such a letter. Protection under the Equality Act isn’t dependent on a consultant letter either.

I can't make a ignorant statement cause I didn't make a statement, I was making a question.

Well if they can't have such blanket policy I imagine it'll be left to the school to decide which children need or not to be potty trained, I can only imagine they'll ask the parents for proof in some way that they need help, after all if the child has problems they will have paper trail from doctors no?

At least I would imagine healthy children wouldn't be able to show same paper trail as a child with SEN would.

Either way not a easy situation cause if they don't do anything at all in the long run things will only get worse, it's just not sustainable that more and more children don't get potty trained.

An ignorant statement posed as an ignorant question, then.

after all if the child has problems they will have paper trail from doctors no?

No, not always initially. A nursery child, and sometimes a child starting school, won’t always have any HCP involvement initially.

No, no posing at all, a honest question cause I am pretty ignorant about the subject, it's why I asked to begin with in case I was saying something wrong.

I see, then depending on how they enforce this new rule I guess the children without any paper trail are the ones who will be sure to suffer in some way.

Someone always end up getting the short end of the stick.

A GP is very unlikely to pay concern with a 3 or 4 year old struggling to toilet train. Even if they were referred to a specialist the wait is long.

Many children start school without a diagnosis on special needs even those with the most severe special needs. The massive wait lists for support and diagnosis are hardly a secret!

If you had read the thread though you would know some DC who go on to receive a diagnosis &/or be classed as having SEN fly under the radar at nursery or early in their school career.

Reading the thread is irrelevant, you can't expect everyone to remember everything on a thread that is at thousands of posts and relatively soon might even close for reaching the limit

Depending on how it goes I can only imagine this rule might not work either and the school will be forced to take funds from something to hire help, at least I don't see goverment giving more funds as usual

It is reasonable to expect someone to know/remember something so basic if they are commenting on a thread; I think.

Not really, especially on christmas.