AIBU in thinking this could spread rapidly to other schools? Parents have to come into school to change NT DCs if they soil themselves.

[CwmYoy]

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/schools-tell-parents-if-your-34349942

It's been a long time coming but I can see it will spread now there are fewer TAs.

As long as SEN needs are taken into account I think it's a good idea.

@Bloonket Probably not. Neglectful private school parents just hire nannies to look after their children and teach them self care.

There was a thread on here recently from a private school parent whose child was not reliably toilet trained - the school had basically said the parents had to come and sort it out, and if it continued then the child would no longer be able to come. Funnily enough, the parent was tearing their hair out trying to sort it - there wasn’t the slightest hint of “it’s the school’s problem”.

Unless you think there is something fundamentally different about children over the past few years (and different between UK children and children all over the world), then a lot of the increased developmental delays we are seeing are environmental, not innate. And at that point, it makes sense to consider whether new parenting norms are adversely affecting child development.

(See also the number of reception and KS1 children with appauling table manners, but that’s a separate thread…)

And at that point, it makes sense to consider whether new parenting norms are adversely affecting child development

Exactly. I don’t really know why people
are surprised that more children are starting school in nappies or not reliably toilet trained. As well as use of disposables, there’s definitely a narrative that you shouldn’t train children until they’re ready. On my local Mums FB page it’s very very common on potty training threads for
people to advise leaving it til the child is around their 4th birthday. Now obviously if it doesn’t go well at that point, that child might either start school in pull ups or having masses of accidents.

Re private school - the local private school here won’t accept children into their nursery that aren’t potty trained. Nor will the Waldorf kindergarten.

You can say you want but it's tantamount to neglect to deliberately leave a,child soiled and wet if parents sent children into school soiled safe guarding concerns would soon be raised

Assuming we are talking about learning disabilities not learning difficulties( two very different things) some children with learning disabilities can of course be trained as they range from mild to profound however they are often delayed in their development

But not always, my daughter started school at corrected age of 3 years 11 months, we did consider deferring bit decided against it.
Now a term into year 1, despite being the youngest, she is highest reader in her class, very caring, supports children in her class with their reading, sometimes gets bored as the work is too easy for her. If we had held her back another year she would have been working completely outside the age range for her class and been very isolated. But due to issues with her bowels she only fully toilet trained few months prior to starting.

I wouldn't have expect the school staff to change her though, she could change her own pull ups and we would have gone in if soiled if that had been needed, as we configured our work to ensure 1 of us is always working from home/at home and chose a school 5 mins walk from our home. We made a choice that she was ready to start academically before she was toilet trained, but that choice comes our responsibility to provide support to the school if needed.

Blimey
Did it say that in the Kindred survey. I missed that!

I know ours wouldn’t take them in pre school ( that’s a year before state kids start ) if they weren’t fully toilet trained.

@SavingTheBestTillLast yes. Sorry I can't copy from it , but here's a screenshot if it works.

Thanks
I didn’t see that one
Here’s a similar extract re comparing parents and teachers thoughts on whose responsibility it is ( it’s from the same survey )
re toilet trained re regular mishaps so not just the occasional one. I would expect this means if they are having regular mishaps ( not including health reasons) this is not really fully toilet trained.
Interestingly only 50% of parents think it’s their complete responsibility to sort that out
More interestingly only 57% of teachers think it’s parents complete responsibility
I find both figures very low.
Surely that is down to parents alone.

As an aside. I’m amazed by those low %s by parents on eating and drinking and dressing as well !

so, school refusing to take the not-toilet-trained is a motivator…

Pre-school.
Thats the year before starting school
Yes
They wouldn’t take them.
They would ask the parents to get them ready for school re toilet training. Then they would take them.

I should say that parents had lots of warning about this as they would sign them up for the school many years before.
They were also expected to be able to dress and do up their ties as well by the time they started in reception…..which, according to their teacher they could, at least in my sons year anyway. I doubt they’d be refused a place for not doing up a tie though…. but basically it’s about being able to do stuff for yourself.

@SavingTheBestTillLast I assume (and admit I might be wrong) that the low figures on being solely responsible is mostly due to working parents having children in childcare. It makes sense to me , as parents and childcare settings work together to toilet train children and if either side "fails" it can hinder the process or make a lot longer and more stressful that it needs to be. It links with the low numbers of teachers as well, as a lot of them will have children that are in childcare 7 hours a day, 5 days a week, and it's not really a job where you can take a week/a few days off to really work on it.

Hope this makes sense.

Yes that could be it.
Ours were full time childcare and parents and nursery all worked together and tbh as new parents we followed the nurseries lead.

I wasn’t factoring in nurseries as part of the process. I was, incorrectly, assuming parents thought it was up to the school. 🥴

@x2boys

Isn't it also neglect on the parents part as well, it's their offspring

Of course if they are deliberately refusing to toilet train them but non of this is the child's fault is it?

It’s not, but it is the parent’s responsibility. Why should they be allowed to deliberately pass that onto to already over stretched teachers?
They’re the ones this policy is aimed at, not children with additional needs.

It's still neglect to leave a child wet and or soiled we can go around in circles with this but it's the child thst must come first

Well yes, but there's only so much you can do , and it's the child who suffers. Everyone goes on about involving SS, but it's not the magic wand they think it is.

We have children whose medical conditions are being neglected (nevermind everything else) and poorly managed and medical professionals or SS barely raise an eyebrow and nothing happens.

At the end of the day, there's a child in the middle of this. If they really have crappy parents it's bonkers to put all the responsibility and care onto them. It's neglectful when you know it won't actually happen.

Can I force Suzie's mum to give a shit about her diabetes? No. Can I ensure that she learns the skills to manage it herself to the best of her ability, and that it is managed correctly and safely while she's in our care? Yes.

I remember in class one at school it happened regularly that kids wet themselves. The teacher had a drawer full of spare pants. The wet pants would be wrapped in newspaper and you'd leave clutching then at the end of the day. But in class two it was far less common. I remember the day an even older girl - 7? - was sent to us because she'd wet herself and needed dry pants. Our teacher humiliated her in front of the whole class.

Yes, I don’t disagree.

Well that's horrible of the teacher
Let's hope it doesn't happen these days.

I remember being taught to do up my tie. I struggled with it, which is why I remember it, but I did tie it after a fashion. When I worked in a nursery in the eighties, we talked about parents judgementally who were mot encouraging children to put their shoes and coats on themselves. It was all about encouraging independence. And they were 3 or 4 years old.

Would think the cost of nappies, daily, over 1-2 years would be motivation to get child onto a toilet ….
Even for single parent, working, there are some hours in the day, and weekends, and of course letting childcare know that child in training, and in a pull up, and using star chart or whatever …..