AIBU in thinking this could spread rapidly to other schools? Parents have to come into school to change NT DCs if they soil themselves.

[CwmYoy]

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/schools-tell-parents-if-your-34349942

It's been a long time coming but I can see it will spread now there are fewer TAs.

As long as SEN needs are taken into account I think it's a good idea.

@jannier agree
theres quite a few research pieces and reports stating the same
One in four has been sited. Plus certain areas much worse than others, mainly down, it seems, to parents not bothering to potty train. In some areas the problem is over 50% of the class at reception

see previous posted extracts, for example.

There is no actual evidence to support this. There are a lot of complaints of course but there were ten years ago as well.

According to the government’s statistics, the estimated take up rate for the 15 free hours for 3 and 4 years old is 95%. The data goes back to 2011, it has never been higher than 95%.

15 hours funding is not taken up by everyone for some they think formal school starts too young, child isn't ready etc. some areas don't have sufficient spaces for all children, some don't see the need if they are not working
You obviously wouldn't do voluntary work then if you can't see why 3 adult women who love children wouldn't accommodate juggling hours when they can.....I started when my 32 year old was in nursery going in to help reading. But I also run a toddler group and toy library. Some people are givers and isn't that just as well for all those who use things like groups, scouts, charity shops, food banks, sure start services etc.
As I said parents need support which is why when I do retire I will be doing more for sure start

Survey Association of Teachers and Lecturers and the ERIC
TES also sited evidence

title pages posted upthread

OK @jannier

15 hours funding is not taken up by everyone for some they think formal school starts too young, child isn't ready etc. some areas don't have sufficient spaces for all children, some don't see the need if they are not working

Indeed, but it’s fairly unusual. Most do take it up in some form or other. It would be rare for around eight children (so about a third of a typical reception class) to fall into those categories.

You obviously wouldn't do voluntary work

Try again. I would and have. That’s not what I’m disputing.

then if you can't see why 3 adult women who love children wouldn't accommodate juggling hours when they can

No idea where the ‘3 adult women’ come from.

.....I started when my 32 year old was in nursery going in to help reading. But I also run a toddler group and toy library. Some people are givers and isn't that just as well for all those who use things like groups, scouts, charity shops, food banks, sure start services etc.

I am not doubting you give your time. I was and am disputing the school specifically appointed you to support with toilet training. This post clears it up to an extent: you’ve been helping out in a reception class as a volunteer which is commendable but worlds apart from being appointed to support with toileting.

As I said parents need support which is why when I do retire I will be doing more for sure start

Parents need support is a nicer way of putting it than they can’t be bothered, get schools to parent their kids, isn’t it?

That’s not evidence. Not in the form I’m asking about. If you ask any teacher they’ll complain about children today but since that’s been happening since the dawn of time I’m not really interested. What I’m about is - there were X number of children starting school in nappies in 2004 compared to X number in 2024. And even then it’s only part of the story. In the intervening twenty years we’ve had massive social changes and these have impacted hugely on schools and demographics.

If a survey of 700 staff as a random snapshot isn’t enough then I’m guessing you didn’t take the Covid vaccine either.

A random sample is perfectly normal and acceptable for a survey and 700 considered high.

Here we go ..
Take up rates depends on the area mine is bad and children in need worse. Things like temporary housing come into play and more.
3 adult women....myself, my fully registered co minder my assistant.....all adults making 3 adult women able to juggle working hours.
Head who I've known years and not just as reading support but working with her team on team around the child meetings, raising EHCPs with staff coming to my setting and more who knows my qualifications and has an issue supporting her staff/children whilst taking in children of 5 in nappies obvious solution any chance you/others in your team can support?
Some parents can't be bothered, some need support, some don't want support because it comes from MIL/mother and prefer validation from internet. Lots of reasons but it is not all or mostly SEND

I’m sure, but the point is that it’s reliant on opinions. And I agree that’s hard to get around. But to give an example, SLT in my school would tell you behaviour has improved because fewer sanctions are recorded on the system. Behaviour hasn’t improved, but the system is so difficult to use no one bothers.

This is sort of the reverse of that, where toileting / children starting school in nappies is not properly recorded into genuine SEN (my friends child is in nappies but he’s severely autistic and non verbal - it’s awful he isn’t in a special school but there just aren’t the spaces and so what can you do?) So his teacher might complain ‘there’s someone in my class in nappies and twenty years ago there wasn’t’ But that wouldn’t take account of the fact that’s not a lazy parent, as this thread is insistent is the cause.

(I’m sure his teacher wouldn’t; she’s lovely, but you get the idea.)

Every generation of teachers harks back to twenty / thirty years ago but I know this is not accurate as that’s when I started teaching and then everyone was harking back to the 70s/80s.

We have undoubtedly had things shift and change in that time. I don’t know how many people are aware that children with special needs - and I don’t just mean severe needs but children with behavioural problems which were no fault of their own - good old ‘chaotic upbringing’ were sent to secure units as recently as the 1990s, and these were often residential. Children with autism were sent to special schools. We now have inclusion thanks to Tony Blair and like most things it has its upsides and downsides. It’s obviously had a sort of circular effect: fewer children are using special schools so special schools have closed so there are fewer spaces -
sp of course we’re seeing children with toileting issues and other issues. And of course lockdown won’t have helped. What I am challenging is that this generation have a sudden volte face: that from the responsible and educated and diligent parenting of the past we have sank literally into our own shit. We haven’t and labelling parents like this is cruel and wrong.

Many will have special needs, diagnosed or not.

Some will come from difficult backgrounds and may need support as they begin their schooling journey.

Some will have a crossover of the two.

But judging, exclusion, sneering, mocking, humiliating and gossiping isn’t helpful to anyone, no matter which category they fall into.

There’s also this survey by Kindred @nothinghasactuallychanged
They do one every year for comparison

Yes OK @jannier , you and your two colleagues volunteer in a reception class where around a third are not toilet trained because the parents have stated it is the schools job. The Head is being extremely unprofessional discussing it and approaching you on that basis regardless of your role. A few holes one might say. Shame the trucks are out for Christmas deliveries.

It dropped after COVID I believe not sure what it is nationally now

Kindreds survey supports @jannier s personal experience

If you look at the statistics it shows the rate did drop after Covid. Then it increased again.

Jesus ....please state the breach of confidentiality and safeguarding when all security checks and training have been done.
What about schools using CMs to run after school clubs does that breach rules too?

Yes it is more acceptable now.
The other issue is far more children with constipation and needing movicol. I have no idea why that is though. One of the reasons that used to be given for later toilet training was to stop a child holding on and reduce issues of constipation. Instead constipation has increased.

Lack of fruit and veg in the diet?
UPFs ?
Too many carbs ?
that’s usually the cause behind most constipation cases

I wasn’t referring to their suggestions I was referring to their stats

The stats boil down to ‘teachers, are there more children starting school in nappies now?’ ‘Yes.’

The stats set out the facts from the findings
For anyone in denial of reality
They have been doing the same survey for a while so one can compare whether things are getting better or worse.

If you don’t want stats fine
You can’t ignore them though and say they don’t exist…….when they do and not by just one organisation either.
Issue proven.

So I'm a liar I have no assistants and no time in September to October to leave the 4 of my mindees with two adults. Despite not working Fridays or technically having the capacity to take on another 5 minded children if we didn't wish to pursue non childminding things.
Are you one of those who always has a reason why you couldn't do it....whatever it is homework, potty, feeding, housework etc? Your fighting pretty hard

Nope I'm merely stating that it's not a legal requirement for kids to be at school as someone said.

Once a child is school age they should not be regularly having accidents. If it's a one-off, maybe the start of a bug, yes someone should help the child. But if it's happening often, parents need to stay local to help change when needed. If it's a child with SEN needs, then yes they school should change them, but this should be built into their care plan and provision made for it.