AIBU in thinking this could spread rapidly to other schools? Parents have to come into school to change NT DCs if they soil themselves.

[CwmYoy]

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/schools-tell-parents-if-your-34349942

It's been a long time coming but I can see it will spread now there are fewer TAs.

As long as SEN needs are taken into account I think it's a good idea.

I remember them being £6:for a pack of pampers in early 90s

Ooh surely it's best to not prolong nappy use for environmental reasons

Maybe she teaches or is a TA? She was asked to define a lot which she did and was still questioned. I said that half of my nursery class were in nappies before we put our foot down like in the article. Now it's 2 (both have SEN).
It's like certain people don't actually want to listen to the people dealing with this in a daily basis.
Someone said 'can anyone actually tell me if a time a parent said they couldn't be arsed to potty train'. I gave 3 quotes and another 3 of parents bemoaning the mess and hassle. I was then told I could just be making it up. Why would I bother? I've been teaching for 20 years, the last 10 in a nursery. I'm also a sendco and believe me the needs are greater now than they've ever been.

Do not get this apparent failure to toilet train school age children. It is unacceptable to expect school to deal with primary age 4/5) kids who are still in nappies unless there is some diagnosed serious issue, IMHO there should be very few meeting that criteria and additional support should be in place in this instance, though I understand this is not always the case.

That's entirely different to a kid having a random toileting “accident” - let’s face it that normally means wetting themselves not pooping. The article seems to be talking about kids who are still in daily nappies, not occasional accidents.

Some teacher and TA acquaintances have told me there’s been a huge rise since covid for some reason.

Is it now more socially acceptable to have an incontinent child now? When my child started school it was definitely assumed they would be able to toilet themselves and would have been viewed as a real disgrace if they couldn’t.

I don’t think it’s fair to leave a child sitting in a dirty nappy, and it’s not fair to fail to toilet train them either. Equally it’s not fair or reasonable to expect the school to change nappies.

She’s a childminder and has been very open about this which is why I am asking how she knows.

So to you think it's a rise in special, needs or lazy parenting
As I recall when my son was in mainstream school, nursery he was the only one in nappies and was in the process of being diagnosed with autism and learning disabilities, he transfered to a special school for reception.
This was 10 years ago.

@jannier how long were they in nappies for? How many regular changes did they require?

Perhaps that's what is needed, more specialist school places rather than mainstream or funding for a separate unit

diagnosed serious issue

Some of those who go on to receive such a diagnosis aren’t diagnosed at 4/5. And a diagnosis isn’t required for a child to be protected by the Equality Act.

For reasons I don’t pretend to understand, there are a number of people convinced that society is doomed, that there are more feckless and lazy parents around than ten or twenty years ago and that the increase of children who are not toilet trained is because of this and not because of medical or other needs.

Because those of us that work in education are seeing an increase in this year on year!

Special needs are also rising though ,there are four special school, s in my LEA ,two of which are primary, two are secondary all four have doubled in capacity over the past few years
There must also be a rise in children with special needs in mainstream?

I do work in education.

Schools don’t have infinite resources either.
Children are entitled to an education but aren’t getting it because the teachers are changing dirty nappies.
The people who should feel ashamed are not the teachers but the lazy parents who are happy to send their children into school knowing they are unable to use a toilet. There are plenty who are not parents of SEN children. They just can’t be bothered.

But no, we will carry on putting the laziness of the few above the rights of the many, whilst making endless excuses for their entitled behaviour. Poor children and poor teachers.

How wonderful, indeed.

Asked to come in and support teachers and parents in potty training autumn term second year running

Amazingly as early years professionals the school recognises we have a lot more experience in potty training than most of their reception teachers I also work closely with them in other areas as a team around the family and raising EHCPs.
We are all experiencing more parents who say it's not their job to potty train unfortunately.

Schools have a 'nominal' 6k per child for SEN which could include specific care needs during a school day, however it is not ring fenced and tends to get spent on other things as schools so strapped for cash. An EHCP should bring extra funds but LA's make it as hard as possible to get one.

I guarantee you most of the children at school who are not toilet trained are not from lazy parents. Through COVID there was no support for parents, there is no support for SEN parents, people are waiting years for SEN assessments, no one can get a GP appointment for anything so if the parent is not coping and cannot do potty training there isn't any support, they've closed all the sure start centres, there are overworked social workers where not potty training a child would be the least of their worries!

The magic 6k is farsical (as are so many areas of SEN support!) the amount schools get doesn’t come close to covering what is needed but it’s used as a bar to prevent parents from pushing for more support.

I work in a school in early years and KS1. We do everything we can for the young people we work with - including changing those children who need it - but we even with twice as many staff we still couldn’t do everything we are expected to do. We have a young person in year two who still needs a lot of toileting support and his needs make it clear he qualifies for an echp needs assessment at least but we are having to fight for that. He can’t write his own name or manage in class for more than 15 mins (ignoring toileting needs) but we are told no. The system is broken and the most vulnerable are being failed.

I would just add 'no medical reason...as yet'. GP told me to come back at age 7 as they don't refer on til after that. So we waited, trying all the while to potty train, had begun when he was 2. After years of tests with continence nurse team all that way up to consultant urology and DS now 14 and still has bladder continence issues. In Y4 he had to wear pull ups as it was so disruptive to learning (over active bladder).

I'm not saying there aren't any lazy parents, there could well be, but don't assume there isn't a medical problem at play. It can take years to go through the system to find out.

I remember one teacher around Year 1 said he was making it up.
He really, really wasn't.

Agree 100% @Sirzy . There should be proper ring fenced money for schools to help deal with continence amongst other things

@jannier

Do you say back to them err yes it is actually

It's unbelievable

Interesting you’ve never mentioned that before @jannier and have been doing it for over a year whilst childminding at least three under threes as well. I’m not totally convinced that you have been pulled into your local school to support with potty training to be honest. I believe that what is more likely is that you have gone in to support a mindee with transition to reception.

It is indeed, unbelievable.

I'm making zero excuses for entitled behaviour. Just pointing out that your fevered wet dream to 'punish' parents you don't feel are towing the line actually results in the humiliation and harm of an actual child. I promise you it isn't the parents who will feel shame.

If they have had four years plus in nappies and no role models....many not attending childcare....with little social contact with peers...and parents treating them like babies it takes them time to learn they should be embarrassed especially in environments where others are not allowed to make fun of them (unlike in the old days). These are often children who don't know how to do things like take their shoes off, feed themselves, walk further than a few yards and who know a tear gets them anything.