AIBU in thinking this could spread rapidly to other schools? Parents have to come into school to change NT DCs if they soil themselves.

[CwmYoy]

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/schools-tell-parents-if-your-34349942

It's been a long time coming but I can see it will spread now there are fewer TAs.

As long as SEN needs are taken into account I think it's a good idea.

Our teachers and TAs will change wet and soiled children where needed but if the soiling is bad, there is only so much we can do with wet wipes/water. We have a growing number of pupils -with and without SEND-who are on Movicol and incorrect or experimental dosage of this can cause some fairly explosive soiling-right down trousers and into shoes and socks. The consistency of this can be like tar and we have phoned home, so the parent has the opportunity to take them home for a shower.

Generally, out of reception, children who are soiling, are very aware, quite embarrassed and don’t want to be changed by the school but want their parent, tbh. Yes, the Equality Act says schools shouldn’t be phoning the parent and yes, if the parents are working, it’s very inconvenient, but that is usually what the child wants.

Surely that parent is causing emotional abuse to the DC. SS should be alerted.

This is why reception classes used to have a nursery nurse.

It was happening before the pandemic.

The games they are “nifty” at though, are fast-paced and very busy, and the evidence is that such screen usage in preschoolers isn’t great for working memory.

Traditionally, quality children’s TV programs are opposite. Play School is slow moving, infrequent frame shifts, usually only one-two presenters at a time. Ditto the old black and white films, to some extent.

children may have been glued to their screens at home, but no one was transporting TVs so children could watch them in supermarket trolleys, strollers, cars and whilst doing out and about chores.

Obviously, but at the relevant time the school is in loco parentis so it has primary responsibility.

Yes, they were.

I grew up in the East Midlands and none of my friends or family started till five. There was no 4+ provision at my school till the late 80s.I wonder if some regions started rolling out 4+ earlier than others? I live in the South East and have met people whose children started school in the 00s but didn't join till age 5 in year 1, by their choice, and it was all fine and dandy. When my eldest started school 7 years ago, the suggestion of missing EYFS raised eyebrows - just not the done thing! I guess if provision was there from the 80s for 4+, and if your kids were developmentally ready, why not send them?
I remember kids having accidents at age 5-6 when I was at school. Not an everyday occurrence, but not rare.

Nevertheless, it is unlawful to prevent a child of compulsory school age from starting school because they are not toilet trained. In fact, if the normal practice in any particular area is for all children of Reception age to start school in September irrespective of when they reach the age of 5, then it would also be unlawful under the Equality Act to prevent non toilet-trained children from starting in September.

What I don't understand about this policy is the silence on what will happen if the parents can't or won't come into school to change their child. Will the school just leave the child in dirty clothes all day? It's also unreasonable to demand a consultant's letter, given the horrendous waiting lists to see consultants

My daughter has a speech delay, I was hoping for her communication to catch up. But by the time she was 3y2m I found it embarrassing that she was still in nappies. So I trained her. It was frustrating and even now, 6 months later, she's only just started asking for the toilet. Previously I'd been taking her for routine visits, relying on her taking herself to the potty in the lounge and taking her every few hours when we were out. She's been diagnosed with autism since.

My main issue is with people who haven't given it a really good try (unless there are really obvious reasons not to) and late potty training in general exacerbates it. So previously if it was normal to train at 18m, it would be embarrassing to still be using nappies at 3. Now it's fine. Not necessarily a bad thing per se, especially if some kids need some extra time but it bleeds into the normality of 4/5 yo NT kids using them.

People will have a lot of sympathy for someone who is really trying and has put some good effort in. And a parent who's been cleaning up accidents for a couple of months has given their child reasonable opportunity to learn.

That certainly wasn’t widespread in my experience. I have been teaching in EYFS/KS1 for nearly 30 years and there were no pupils in any of the mainstream classes I was in on teaching practice or as an NQT in nappies.

Well that's a big step back from your previous assertion that it was illegal under the Equality Act

I agree with @Fgfgfg that this issue isn't covered under that legislation.

Your argument that any child who has reached school age and is not toilet trained must have some sort of developmental deficit might be correct from a particular perspective, but to call it a disability is begging the question.

Under the legislation a person only has a disabilty if they have a physical or mental impairment. It doesn't cover negligent/incapable/inadequate parents

Obviously for those children who do have an actual physical or mental impairment it might well be unlawful - rather than illegal

Yes, five years ago. And ten. And twenty.

There is a derth of TAs and some are not contracted to change children following accidents. At a push, I have known HTs do it but no other staff do.

Then you were an outlier. Children in the past used to watch children's TV. But there were very few programmes screened.

Not when I went to school they did not.

This is all rubbish. It's all middle class froth about stuff that's happened forever.

I'm nearly 50 and there were kids daily peeing and pooping til 7 or 8.
You had to wear blue gym knickers if you did, it was a mark of shame. Happened to me once when I was 6.
Toilets were outside, cold, and tracing paper loo roll. Noone wants to go now either. How many women refuse to poo in public loos?! There are threads about how people just can't go. Adults.

Instead of ignoring it, people are now trying to find out why, and imo that's a good thing.

I worked in a nursery for a bit in the eighties. The children were all 3 or 4 years old. I do not remember any of the children wearing nappies and even accidents were very rare. I would have to remind children to go to the toilet when you saw them crossing their legs, and I had to periodically go into the toilets to flush them as most children were not reliable at remembering to flush. But they were largely going by themselves.
I remember one autistic boy non verbal who at three was toilet trained, but had to be accompanied as he needed prompting for each stage. But he did it by himself.
Whatever people claim, toilet training has significantly changed.

I agree. Nursery nurses in a reception class was unusual. There may have been one in a nursery class attached to a school if you were lucky. When I started school in the 80s, you started in the first class (called reception now) and it had a teacher, but no assistant. I started the term I turned 5, so if you were autumn-born, you did a whole year, but summer-borns only did a term in that first year. If you weren’t toilet trained, you didn’t start. If you wanted to do part time, you could. If you had significant SEN, you went to a special school.

Plenty of children have had pee/poo accidents in reception/KS1 since forever. In my experience as a teacher since the late 90s, children starting a mainstream reception class in nappies, is a new thing. It is an issue and schools don’t have enough funding to staff toilet training alongside educating classes of 30.

Once again I'm asking how many children actually start reception in nappies? Concrete numbers/statistics/research. Not assumptions .

Because even the one that made the headlines does not mention nappies , just

children who commence school in the UK do so without being 'toilet trained' (able to use the toilet independently and manage all the steps involved in doing so safely and hygienically)

So a kid who doesn't wipe properly counts, a kid that doesn't wash hands counts, a kid that misses the toilet/poor aim counts, a kid that struggles to undress/dress back up counts , a kid that needs reminders counts and so on. So of course we end up with stats like 1 in 4 , which people then extrapolate to hordes of children starting reception in nappies.

I disagree with this policy. After being fine all through Reception, my DD had a toilet accident in Y1. I’m glad a sympathetic lunchtime supervisor helped her out and found her clean pants, rather than left her waiting for me to come into school.

School attendance is a real issue since Covid. Won’t this policy lead to some parents keeping their children at home rather than going to and fro? And then a child who might be behind in one developmental aspect will probably you fall behind in other aspects too.

@BlueSilverCats 24% of children starting school are not toilet trained.

The actual question in the survey says nothing about handwashing, etc. The survey states not being toilet trained means toileting ‘mishaps’ occur frequently rather than occasionally. 24% of children in reception class according to this survey are having frequent toileting mishaps.

https://kindredsquared.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/02/Kindred-Squared-School-Readiness-Report-February-2024.pdf

Yes of course. And I agree, teachers should not have to do it.

Well that’s completely false.

This.