AIBU in thinking this could spread rapidly to other schools? Parents have to come into school to change NT DCs if they soil themselves.

[CwmYoy]

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/schools-tell-parents-if-your-34349942

It's been a long time coming but I can see it will spread now there are fewer TAs.

As long as SEN needs are taken into account I think it's a good idea.

And so can not toilet training your four year old for school. And relying on the school to parent your child.

Note - this does not in any way include SEN kids.

But these things aren't covered by the Equality Act.

I suspect a lot of the issues we have with this are because:

1. Most kids did not start school till they'd turned five and a bit a couple of generations ago (research shows that the bulk of language delayed kids catch up around age five, interestingly, and also toilet accidents are far more common in EYFS than Year 1). The fact we had to create a name for the year group BEFORE year 1 is a massive flag, surely?
2. Unlike today, most teachers a few generations ago were not highly trained university graduates who understandably would not have been inclined to do the mopping up. Most women working in the primary schools 40+ years ago (particularly in 'Infants') were prepared to help and clean kids with toileting issues, simply rolling up their sleeves and getting on with it. Not saying this is right - just what I remember.
3. That we used to have Infants and Juniors as distinct learning environments - many primary schools are still split physically to this day, and pre national curriculum those teaching the Juniors were the more 'educated' teachers doing serious work and Infants used to be a lot more about learning through play.

Kids were just as glued to screens 30+ years ago as today, just a different kind, and there is some evidence that the interactive nature of tablets etc correlates with better IQ than a kid vegging out in front of a TV! It likely builds other skills too, eg fine motor skills.

Kids toilet train when they are ready, just as they do most things. I always cringe when parents try to claim credit for this.

My mum gave me a TV tie-in parenting book from the late 80's by a consultant psychiatrist where ADHD isn't mentioned and Autism only once and fleetingly - it's described as an extremely rare form of language disorder. What IS mentioned is that around 20% of kids are affected by Specific Development Delay (and mostly boys). These will have been the equivalent of a lot of today's ND kids.

I completely agree it’s neglect, a form of abuse. So surely the worst thing to do in the situation of a child being abused is set up a scenario where abusive parents have to come and collect them early from school or where parents may decide it’s easier not to send them into school at all. So many posters on this thread seem intent on punishing ‘lazy’ parents without considering that there will be a vulnerable child involved. Should an already disadvantaged child really be punished and have their education compromised just because their parents are neglectful?

I can't see how a child wouldn't be toilet trained if they weren't SEN. I don't believe it could be down to parenting, a child of that age experiences shame and embarrassment if they are at the typical stage of development. They woud notice their friends at nursery going to the toilet and would copy the behaviour.
It's easier as a parent to toilet train rather than have to change nappies so I don't think it's likely due to laziness either. Unless it severe neglect where they wouldn't even change the nappy. In which case they're unlikely to go into school to change it or even bother taking the child to school in the morning.

Kids toilet train when they are ready, just as they do most things. I always cringe when parents try to claim credit for this.

They don't.
They don't magically wake up ready to use a toilet one day. Just like other skills, it takes practise to know when to go. Disposable nappies don't help with the wet sensation, hence cloth nappy kids training earlier.

There are some children who struggle to train at 2, for a mix of reasons. But there are a lot of parents out there who use "they'll train when they're ready" as a reason not to try at 2. Two people in my immediate circle said this and surprise surprise, their kids weren't dry at 4. Because they were waiting for a magic penny to drop that doesn't.

Agreed surely a typical five year still in nappies seeing their friends using the toilet would be embarrassed to be wearing nappies they would have language an̈d surely say mum ,dad I want.toI use the toilet ?
If they don't have the awareness then diagnosed or not it's an additional need

I don't think you have much idea about how some 4 year olds live. Numbers turn up to school having barely had any conversation at home, dirty, no idea how to eat, fed on utter crap, no idea how to share/play with other children, have spent hours infront of tvs watching all sorts, live with adults who smoke, drink, take drugs regularly, witness domestic violence, live in one parent families where the other is in prison or there is a continual string of partners , live in poverty and chaotic homes with numerous poorly parented children or are technically 'homeless' and living in hostels/rooms.
Parenting is the issue and the standards in some deprived areas are appalling.

Absolutely but regardless of how and why this has happened it's not their fault and is surely an additional need due to their circumstances?

And surely severe neglect can present as SEN these kids are being neglected at home it can't be right for them to be also neglected at school?

I think there are lots of factors . Traditionally one parent was home and most weren’t in childcare all day … so far more time to train .

i was born in the 70’s I. Terry nappies - my mum had a twin tub so definitely motivation to train also modern nappies - children feel less uncomfortable when wet ..

I also think this idea of waiting till they are ready is not helpful at all .

My Ds was only diagnosed with ADHD in year 5 and Asd I. Year 8 .. he was toilet trained by the time he started school but it isn’t as simple as say exciting sn’s

The whole of education does need looking at holistically .

There is an increase in Sn’s - inclusivity is pushed without funding which not only fails the children with SN’s but the children without who aren’t able to learn .

The lack of funding is destroying everyone’s education .

we absolutely need to look at what is happening to our children and what they need .

I'm social worker so I am well aware. I've worked with neglected and abused children who are potty trained at 2/3. It's easier to have a child go to the toilet than have to buy and change nappies.
As for those that are severely neglected, the parents wouldn't bother taking their child to school if they had to go into change them. The child would then be unseen and there would be no one to recognise, report and address the neglect.

My autistic son wears pull ups at school but always does no.2 on the toilet at home. The one time he had an upset tummy and soiled his nappy I came and took him home

Ironically my sons special school.were very reluctant to help me toilet train my severely autistic son they kept saying he wasent ready due to behavioral issues ( it was easier for them just to change him) had to insist I wanted him out of nappies by high school before theu agreed to help we got there in the end

The problem in some cases seems to be who will change the child? No one wants to leave a child in soiled clothing but what happens to the other 29 if there is no TA and the teacher is expected to deal with it.

Staffing has been cut to the bone and I can see how this ruling has come about.

It may be illegal but it's also illegal to leave the rest of the class unsupervised. What choice do schools have other than to call parents in?

I’d love to see the evidence that iPads, phones etc are better for children’s cognitive outcomes than a TV screen.

I’m sure you’ve already seen the doctor and so on about this but I also imagine she can get herself changed when she has an accident. We have a few in our R class this year who have regular wee accidents but just give us a quiet word that they have then go and get themselves sorted with fresh clothes. And, apart from embarrassment for the child, that’s really not a big deal for anyone.

Playing Video Games Has an Unexpected Effect on Kids' IQ, Says Study : ScienceAlert

I would have thought it would be better. Staring at a TV screen doesn't require any motor skills or coordination.

Certainly when I was a child starting school at the beginning of the 80's, most of my class mates, like me, were aged around 4.5- 5. Other than the VERY odd wet incident I cannot recall any of the 60 ish kids in the first year having a soiling incident and certainly no nappies.

The only time I can recall a parent having to come in to deal with a poorly child was a mother being forced to clean up vomit from her circa 10 year old son on the classroom carpet, In retrospect that was poor of that particular teacher and the janitor. This was a one off incident with a child that became poorly.

You would think a 4 or 5 year old could get themselves changed wouldn't you? ....my son wet himself in his first day at nursery at almost 4. Staff were amazed that without telling anyone he took himself off to be changed. It was standard in our home as he suffered a regression when his baby brother was born.
Our current Reception class (and those for the last few years) seem utterly incapable of dressing/undressing themselves and certainly can't perform a change unaided. We are 'lucky' that we have extra staffing for 2 severely autistic preverbal (non toilet trained but supported via funding) children so we usually have extra hands on deck. Unfortunately, turn your back and these kids are climbing, eating things and trying to escape.

If the parents just .... don't then they are being neglectful. Teachers are paid to teach DC not to change their shitty nappies. There is a bad enough recruitment crisis in teaching as it is. How many teachers will they recruit if they say they have to change shitty nappies?

Sure, gaming has problem solving etc. but most pre schoolers aren’t gaming, they’re watching fast-paced clips on phones and iPads. How is this helping them cognitively?

Hercis1, sorry but we will have to respectfully disagree. Most kids have huge leaps and DO gain skills overnight. Most kids do not have to be taught to speak for example. It's just the variation in human development is huge, but a one size fits all education system can't really accommodate that.

Sadly I've seen many mums and grans make a massive deal of getting their kids/ grandkids to be out of nappies before the child is ready and then they are stressed and angry because the poor child is having constant accidents - I remember one usually lovely mum saying she felt her nearly three year old had accidents on purpose to annoy her- it was nonsense, she just wasn't ready.

Often kids seem to spontaneously start reading, almost overnight. Walking happens the same way. Why wouldn't the basics of toilet training just click too?

https://www1.racgp.org.au/newsgp/clinical/is-increased-screen-time-impacting-children-s-emot

Preschoolers using iPads frequently seem to be more likely to struggle with emotion regulation and executive functioning.

I did mention tablets specifically - most of the little pre-schoolers I've seen are pretty nifty at some of the games on them, but even so, many kids were glued to screens in the past. I used to spend hours watching the old black and white films they used to screen before daytime TV was a thing, when I was 4-5 and then afternoons and weekends too. I like to think I'm fairly normal 😁