AIBU in thinking this could spread rapidly to other schools? Parents have to come into school to change NT DCs if they soil themselves.

[CwmYoy]

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/schools-tell-parents-if-your-34349942

It's been a long time coming but I can see it will spread now there are fewer TAs.

As long as SEN needs are taken into account I think it's a good idea.

Our family worker is working with the mum on several areas of need, but if no progress we will escalate to SS. Although from experience I dont expect they will do anything!

Ratio for reception is 1:30, most schools operate with a TA but if budget cuts mean they can’t afford it then it is what it is, you can’t take the adult out for one child when there are 29 others needing them. I agree with the policy and I think it should be the norm as it was years ago.

I don't think it's aimed at the odd mishap though, it's aimed at children who are not trained and regularly/ frequently soil, potentially even wear a nappy.

This.

It’s extremely rare for kids to spontaneously start reading. Most are either taught by their parents or by school. Interesting you mention that though because we get parents whose 6/7 year olds can’t read at all and they say ‘yeah but one day it will click’. Not necessarily.

Walking/talking - these are skills that are learned by watching care givers, experimenting, being encouraged. Walking tends to come more naturally albeit the physical environment needs to be supportive but talking absolutely needs input, Development of speech has a huge spectrum based partly on the amount of speech a child has been exposed to, how much they are spoken to (old landmark study showed that children didn’t learn language from TV nearly as well as from care givers - possibly because you can’t see the mouth shape as easily on TV), the way in which they’re spoken to (mirroring baby talk etc), whether they’ve got a dummy in constantly… and so on.

Likewise toilet training. My DD trained herself at 18 months - but she’d always gone with me to the toilet, I’d chatted about what I was doing, she was mirroring and then alongside that bladder and bowel control had developed quite early. My son needed to be taught it more overtly - which I did as soon as he turned 2. Waiting for them to do it themselves is part of the problem we have here.

It isn’t so much waiting for them to do it themselves as when you’ve tried to teach them and they aren’t getting it accepting that and trying again in a few months.

I still feel awful about what I put DS through.

Oh, I hear you. We are lucky in that the majority of our R kids are able to change themselves from a wee accident. But we do have those who soil themselves and as I mentioned upthread - I know exactly what you mean about the dangers of turning your back on some kids.

I am not commenting on whether parents might be firced to go up to schools. I am commenting on your remark about how how unusual it is for reception children to not be toilet trained and why they would , you think, be easily trained. I'm astonished you are a social worker. Is that with children or adults?

I agree but the issue is poor parenting in most cases.

Quite

About bloody time. The state and schools are not there to compensate for shit parenting, and frankly when posters are saying “what happens to children whose parents don’t care” -the answer isn’t for schools to step in and sort it out. If the parents don’t give a shit, then that’s on them.

Err? what has that got to do with anything?

What about the equality of the other children? sitting next to a child covered in shit? the teachers? time taken to change the child, disrupting the learning of others?

I don't the EQ act mentions nappies and schools can and do bar children for their behaviors.

Btw i'm not talking about child with diagnosed needs etc

True. I picked the definition of not toilet trained from a report on the actual survey, which indeed it says toileting "mishaps".

However, it does not mention nappies does it? And how do they define mishaps? It's all rather vague.

I’m not astonished at all most child services social workers I don’t think have actually seen a real life child outside of their working environment. They’ve no concept of normality to compare with.

If a child is to be excluded for their behaviour schools have a whole host of hoops to jump through first. It has to be extreme behaviour and even then a plan will need to be put in place (in theory!) to ensure they aren’t missing education long term.

like it or not all children are entitled to an education. Sadly too many on here think it’s ok to prevent some of the most vulnerable young people from receiving an education because it’s hard to do.

I don’t want to be changing children at work, I have a million other things to do and it is a disruption (just like a vomiting child or an injured child or an upset child etc etc) but you do it. You do it to preserve the dignity of the young person, to help them and ensure they aren’t embarrassed. If it’s on ongoing issue you seek advice and you work with - not against - the family to get the best outcomes for the child.

@Sirzy
have a million other things to do and it is a disruption (just like a vomiting child or an injured child or an upset child etc etc) but you do it. You do it to preserve the dignity of the young person, to help them and ensure they aren’t embarrassed.

But what if you just can't? You cannot leave the rest of the class unattended. Lack of staff is what has prompted this, imo.

Then you do the best you can. You find a way.

like pretty much every school we are chronically understaffed but you do what is needed to help the children and ensure they don’t suffer. Leaving a child in their own mess should never be an option.

Jesus wept.

That's exactly what the state is for. To protect citizens and advocate for the greater good of the public.

So we just default to zero intervention or empathy and let vulnerable or struggling children fend for themselves. Fall out of sight of society and the opportunity for education and betterment because they have "shit parents" or a medical condition?

When my kids started preschool years ago age 3 the rule was then had to be potty trained to attend. And by school age it was virtually unheard of for a child to be in nappies.
.
So where are all these extra kids in nappies or not toilet trained by school age coming from. ? People saying about SEN. But there's always been kids with SEN.

Haven’t read the whole thread. As a teacher though I’ve had this raised many times.
the reality is many parents work 45/50 min away from school and rely on wrap care too. The bottom line is we can’t leave a child for an hour or so sitting in poo or wee whilst their skin turns raw. So the debate is pointless on that front.
we would instead create a care plan, get outside help on where needed and discuss timing. Often for poo it’s either a case of asking for an earlier breakfast before school or regular toilet breaks straight after lunch. For wee pull ups if all else fails.
it could be a hard autumn term but rarely lastly long

Either way, that survey is incredibly troubling. Half of parents did not think it was entirely their responsibility to toilet train their children. Even worse (though off topic!) fewer than half think a child should be able to access a book correctly when they start school. I know on these threads people hate to blame parents but…

You have a point but it may be when they go to Reception they aren’t toilet trained as this may be the first school setting for lots of kids. Our key worker at nursery always said you can spot the kids who haven’t been to nursery a mile off,

There is a limit to what the state can do. We have free education and free healthcare. It’s never been easier to find help via the internet. And yet that is somehow never enough for some families. At some point personal responsibility needs to kick in - precisely because the state has finite resources and they should be concentrating on those with real needs - not shit parent syndrome. If, previously, it was entirely expected that children well under 3 were potty trained before they could start childcare/playgroup, and since those settings were told they can’t refuse non potty trained children and the number of children not yet dry in those settings has increased - nothing has changed about those children except their homes are not teaching them how to use the toilet. Many parents will absolutely take the path of least resistance.

Schools should not be the social care provider of last resort.

This drives me nuts. What parent actually thinks it’s not their responsibility to toilet train their kid, ignorance, stupidity or naivety?

Kids who aren’t able are the exception to the rule so the vast majority can and the parents are choosing not to.

Just out of curiosity are these also the parents who tear a strip off the school if their kid is ever shown to do anything wrong and deny everything?

100% this. And not every kid is SEN either. Also I know many SEN kids that toilet trained just fine and went to school toilet trained. It was their parents who wanted to make sure at four they were ready.

When all the excuses come then people feel they have an out for doing it, Absolutely there are kids that can’t but that is the exception not the rule.