What Should I Have Said? Re: Holocaust

[TowerRavenSeven]

Recently dh and I attended an acquaintances party. The host’s wife recently moved from Germany. Our son was supposed to do an internship there (ended up changing plans) so naturally we were speaking about Germany. Out of the blue, she says ‘you know, it’s been 80 some years, can’t we (meaning Germany) move on from feeling guilty about the Holocaust? We’ve said we’re sorry, can’t we just move on from it?”
My mouth dropped open and I know I gave a deer in the headlights stare. She wasn’t really asking a question it was more of a remark. I know I was being unreasonable not saying anything - I Wanted to say, no we can’t forget, we must remember! But as their guest it made me so extremely uncomfortable, I didn’t want to have a row with the hosts at their home. She already knew how I felt with my mouth dropping open and - but if this ever happens again, what is a good response to such a statement?

This whole thing started with the 2006 world cup - I think Germany's been extremely nationalistic (in a good way) around football for a long time obviously peaking with winning the world cup in 2014

I guess you could say something about there being lots of countries with awful pasts that they would rather forget (then name a few from around the world) and then say something like - we must remember etc ...

Then quote M Twain - History Doesn't Repeat Itself, but It Often Rhymes

Thank you for compiling that list. Are you able to acknowledge anything your own nationality has ever done wrong too?

Not personal guilt, no, but a more nuanced look at history. And for the UK as a country to acknowledge how it systematically extracted wealth from other countries, impoverishing them in the long term and leaving it ridiculously wealthy for its size. That economic imbalance still persists today.

But look at the battle against the National Trust for going ‘woke’, simply for acknowledging where much of the wealth that built those lovely stately homes came from. Look at the nostalgia for WW2 and hero-worship of Churchill. Yes there was a short period of time when Britain ‘stood alone’ against fascism, but it didn’t win the war single-handedly. And Churchill was a good wartime prime minister, but tell that to the millions of Bengalis who died when he refused to divert resources to combat famine.

If ‘we’ don’t have to feel guilt then we shouldn’t feel pride either. Individuals on this board may not, but many do.

Spectacularly missing the point

I have to disagree with this view. If you talk to Polish people, you'll quickly see that there’s still a strong dislike toward Germans, and World War II is a topic that comes up regularly. While it’s true that modern German society has no direct link to the horrors of the war, the historical impact is far from forgotten.

I also don’t agree with the idea that Great Britain is uniquely criticized for its past while other countries are not. Resentment toward countries like Germany is very real, but it might not be as openly discussed in the U.K. as it is in other parts of Europe.

It wasn’t just a war though. People weren’t indiscriminately bombed or displaced (which is awful of course).

Jews, amongst some other ethnic minorities, were hand selected for torture. They were taken to gas chambers to be mass killed. They were actively hunted and enslaved in work camps, forced to labour with insufficient food and water until they died. Children were killed or, if fortunate, ripped from their parents and sent abroad, never to see them again. There were no sanctuaries, no options, no retaliation until much later.

This wasn’t just another war. This was on a whole different scale.

How so?

I get her point (a bit). Of course we should never forget but I used to live in Bristol, I felt that I was being asked to apologise constantly for the whole slave trade, it does get a bit much.

I'm half German, but born and raised in England and I can confirm that there is a deep seated hatred of Germans here.
I've been subject to physical attacks, Nazi salutes, isolation and even had swatsitkas drawn on my personal possessions. Even my English parent hated Germans. All this is because some people believe I should pay for being an evil Nazi.
Obviously I've had nothing to do with the Holocaust as I was born in the 90's
From talking to other Germans, there is a feeling that we should never forget but we also shouldn't be made to pay for what our ancestors did and I agree whole heartedly. There needs to be a point when we move forward to prevent such horrors from happening again because clearly living in the past isn't helping those who are becoming victims of similar crimes today. Something has to change

I would have said the younger generations are not responsible for the wrongdoings of their forefathers.

Nobody thinks they are, but, the holocaust should never be forgotten.

Of course we can't forget the Holocaust.

Equally, I don't think it's reasonable to expect German people who weren't even alive when it happened to feel guilty about it.

DH is German and we spend a bit of time there and have German/Austrian relatives.
Never ever has any of them (several generations) brought up The Holocaust so I find you post very very surprising and we have never raised it because it would be rude.

When Israel is singled out for criticism whilst staying silent about atrocities against Muslims around the world, that’s an example of antisemitism. When this is done on a thread about the Holocaust – the greatest massacre of Jews the world has ever known – this further compounds the antisemitism. The poster was very quick to talk about Gaza as soon as the persecution of Jews had been mentioned. i’m guessing that’s why their posts have all been removed.

I'm so sorry this has happened to you.
I don't think we should ever forget but we must see it more as 'what can we learn today?' and not 'who can we blame today?'.

There's a difference between "moving on" and "forgetting". Is she native German? Maybe a language thing? Or maybe German directness?

I think feeling pride or shame over where you were randomly born is strange anyway. People who tell others they should feel shame over the past and spend their time cut and pasting what other countries have done wrong rarely would ever acknowledge anything their own country had done wrong, such as treatment of their own women and children. It's not healthy to rant at other countries while feeling excessive pride in your own nationality's perfection.

I’d probably have asked a general question about memory culture in Germany and where it is these days, and referred to the issues that came up about memory and commemoration in relation to the decade of centenaries in Ireland.

Yh. But your really not going to like it as we were are born & raised in the old empire 🫣😂😂😂

What nationality are you and are you able to acknowledge anything at all your own nationality has ever done wrong? Even to your own people?
As I've stated, I don't believe anyone should feel pride or shame for where they randomly happened to be born. I just think that when people spend their time cutting and pasting other countries' sins, (including to their own people) they need to be able to acknowledge their own nationality might not always have been a model of perfection. Any examples at all?

I don’t agree with this at all.

There’s no global ledger of who did what to whom, with a final reckoning of who should feel the greatest guilt and should hang their head the lowest.

This isn’t about name-calling, playground tactics of who’s the biggest bully or who’s the greatest victim.

Anyone who knows anything about these things understands that at their root this is about identity, generational (centuries) of culture shaped by trauma, economic legacies that persist for hundreds of years.

It’s not undocumented and unknown that various west African tribal leaders sold their people into the slave trade. Th eir own people, from the sale of whom they profited. Does this mean nobody can talk about the trade in human slaves unless and until we “acknowledge” those wrongs too?

What is the moral or ethical basis of your position? It seems to be “it’s not fair tho”. There are some instances where really, fair or not, the complainant really has no standing.

I've never said no one can talk about the slave trade though? I've said when people cut and paste these lists of multiple things a nationality has done wrong, including to their own people, they rarely ever acknowledge their own nationality may have behaved badly in the past too, including to their own people. You've done that though, so thank you. It's a rarity indeed.
People often keep their own nationality hidden too, to further avoid what their own nationality may have carried out.

when people cut and paste these lists of multiple things a nationality has done wrong, including to their own people, they rarely ever acknowledge their own nationality may have behaved badly in the past too, including to their own people

Why do you think they need to?

And I always thought Jurgen the German was a pisstake!

I lived in Germany for a few years. We lived on a road where the railway line bringing the people in to Bergen-Belson. Was very eerie and never used but not removed when they built the houses.

Not sure if it's all of Germany, but my German friend says the holocaust isn't taught.....like it never happened. The area we lived in was very much in denial at what happened in the local camp. Very odd.