You don't need to follow specific rules to be middle class

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I've found a few mumsnetters seem to think you need to follow rules to be middle class, words not to use, places not to shop, behaviour that's not ok, etc. It's odd to me. For me middle class just 'Is', based on upbringing and current life. Surely the middle class behaviour (whatever that is) just comes naturally.

Based on my current life and upbringing I would class myself as middle class if I was required to define it, but I'm not conventional and don't try to follow any rules, and I don't see it as the badge of honour some on MN seem to see it as.

I know a lot of people don't believe in classes, for the of this purpose pol I'm just asking: Do you feel you need to follow specific rules to be middle class?

YABU - yes, class is defined by rules that need to be followed
YANBU - no you don't have to try to be middle class you just are

According to the BBC class calculator we are the elite middle class. However that seems to be based on income and interests.

DH and I are both from up north, with working class fathers who went to grammar then uni on a grant and had successful careers.

I would say we are reverse snobs and find a lot of typically English middle class attributes like accent and what you wear quite petty and trivial.

Oh that’s a shame I am a lovely person 😅

With regard to my comment on tight as anything- I think it’s in perspective on what one is talking about and how one spends their money and what they value. I’m not saying we don’t spend money- in fact we spend an awful lot compared to others.

For example- I don’t use finance for our cars, we buy them out right (as we’re wealthy enough to do so) and I wouldn’t be paying interest on a car. Whereas our friends wouldn’t think twice to this. So I’m tight in that regard.

We buy ours wine from a wine club where we get great value for our money of champagnes, cremants etc but I wouldn’t spend £50 on a bottle of champagne in a supermarket as it’s not good value!

So to some we would be tight! I’m not saying we don’t pay our way at all. We’re over generous. We have all of friends over for a Christmas canapé evening and we are filled to the brim with decent food and wine. Being tight means choosing to spend on what we place value on and not spending on things that we don’t. In fact I just bought £400 wellies as they will last a decade and are so comfortable.

It's simple:

Name on your shirt- Working class
Name on your office door/desk: Middle Class
Name on the building: upper class

Middle classes are very insecure owing to the relative newness of their existence. Us peasants know we are peasants.

Very peculiar examples of “being tight”. Are you actually taking the piss?

PMSL at 400 quid wellies. They saw you coming!

I think the obsession around it is a bit silly.

I know I was brought up working class. Labourer dad who was widowed, mum had been a receptionist. Rented. Charity shop clothes back before it was cool, home cooked everything because we couldn't ever afford to eat out. Did get a horse, but that was through a friend of a friend. 😂

Now I've got a PhD, I'm a senior manager in publishing. Married to a professor, own a large house here and one in Norway (which Norwegian DH inherited). So I'd assume I'm middle class technically. However, I still shop second hand a lot and cook everything from scratch. I still like fishfinger butties as a treat and I don't have any interest in big tellies or cars. Never bought anything on finance in my life. While I can speak very well, I still use slang.

It's all just...sliding. I don't feel posh suddenly. I don't really want to be seen as middle class, or working class, or anything. I'm just me.

My last ones I’ve had since I was 18 and lasted 15 years - they are wonderful!

Why would I be? I think some people assume being tight means not donating to charity, not buying people rounds of drinks and little things. That’s not what I mean when I say we’re tight- we spend a lot and are very generous but we look for the best value in things and don’t throw money away- maybe this is why we’re in the position we are in. We have an accountant who helps us manage our finances so we’re not losing money by investing in the wrong things etc
We are off skiing over new year, we’re staying in a chalet which we are sharing with our friends and it makes it much better value than paying for a hotel. Things like that.

They had middle class before industrialisation. In the middle ages it was doctors, merchants, clergy. People who had to work for their livelyhood but were not serfs.

You’re clearly blinded by your own privilege then. I’m WC and work in a firmly MC sphere. I experience class prejudice and micro aggressions on the daily. Class bias is real. Open your eyes.

No tats, no nose piercings, no XL bullies

Grammar schools as they were originally conceived in the 40s/50s were a great aid to social mobility. They gave access to (free) university and therefor the professions to children of the working class, the 11+ could be passed just be being good at learning at school, not by the intense (and expensive) tutoring that seems to be the norm in the areas they are left in now. Though I think their time has passed, having them in such few counties but allowing those from outside the areas to compete for places and not allowing the state schools in the area to teach to the test means those who's parents can help or pay for help are more likely to get in. (Both my parents were the first in their families to grammar and uni and may have achieved middle classness, though I'm not sure as we still have a northern accent so it may not count)

Well no, it's a very taboo subject. And birds of a feather tend to flock together. Add to that the British tendency to avoid controversial topics and confrontation and you'd be hard pressed to have this type of discussion offline that wasn't in a uni bar or debate society.

my parents were working class, I grew up middle class, which I still am. I dont try to be, I dint aspire to be, I just am.

this seems quite common (wc to mc), but is it possible to go mc to uc?

my children are you everything uc should be …privately educated at traditional prep/senior schools etc etc….but I dont feel they’ll be anything other than mc (which is fine btw, but just interesting that I can be born to wc parents and be mc, but they cant be born to mc and become uc).

I think I disagree to an extent on this one. A friend is extremely successful to the point I’m you may know his name but if not I’m absolutely certain you’d know his business. So he’s certainly ‘got his name on the building’ and he would argue with his last breath that he’s working class. He’s from an extremely modest background with what was just a tiny business that he managed to scale very well.
I also know another chap relatively well who has a title. Quite a large estate that’s been in his family for generations but cash poor so has to work (I’ve devised several ways for him to overcome his financial issues but I’m not sure he’d welcome my non-expertise!). He has a professional job but by your parameters would be middle class.

I’m not actually sure how I’d define class and I don’t know what class I think I’m in. Privately educated, lucky to have been raised with the trappings of wealth but from what I’d very much describe as being from a working class background. I own a successful business, participate in what are typically seen as upper middle class/upper class hobbies and have friends who are unemployed & also one or two with peerages. Probably working class as that’s my roots. I think most peoples ‘default’ position is to see themselves as middle class.

For very random reasons I was once at a panel chat event on the topic of what it's like being working class clergy, even though I am neither working class nor clergy. It was very interesting because in a clerical role you are expected to be able to interact at any level from the lowest and most challenging echelons of society and also know how to comport yourself when taking tea with titled gentry. You tend to have an income that is just about enough to live on at a level typical of a lower mc salary but are usually given a vicarage which is big enough to house 5 children plus have spare rooms in case the Bishop plus entourage need a place to stay, which you are expected to heat, maintain, decorate and furnish from that income. Someone said there's an unspoken assumption that you'll have family money behind you.

But I digress. The event included getting people to raise their hands to classify which class they identified with, including an option for those who wanted to opt out of the class system altogether and not identify with any class. This last category were then asked some yes or no questions that are the basic hallmarks of whether or not someone is middle class and 100% of them very much were. The trait of "wanting to opt out of the class system altogether and not identify with any class" appears to be very much the preserve of the middle class with neither upper or lower/working class people having any engagement with the idea.

That's totally fascinating NobleWashedLinen.
The idea of the clergy being from naice families is a pretty ingrained one I think.
Ultimately, however much the upper and middle classes want to think their class is about some indefinable set of manners or " culture" its actually about exactly that: Family money behind you.
So, you can be Lady Wotnot, working as a cleaner, but if your background involves land, private schooling and trust funds you are upper class because the money has shaped your every experience.
That's why working class people who have made a lot of money can have middle class children- the money buys the private schooling, the connections, experiences and most importantly sense of security.
It's how I know that whatever I do in life I'm working class because there has never been family money. Not because we don't read books or go to art galleries or whatever ( we do!).

It was very interesting because in a clerical role you are expected to be able to interact at any level from the lowest and most challenging echelons of society and also know how to comport yourself when taking tea with titled gentry.

As an aside, padres in the Royal Navy have floating rank. It means that they automatically always considered to be the rank of the person they are talking to, whether that's admirals or ratings.

I believe I read on here once-
Blinds- Working Class
Curtains- Middle Class
Drapes- Upper Class.

Where do shutters rank on that scale? 😉

This may be your own personal version of the class system, but I can assure you it bears no resemblance to anything outside your head.

I think the obsession on here stems from a mix of people wanting to show they are part of the gang, but also for some a genuine desire to show the "tells" that people do that can be quite embarrassing for the person doing them unwittingly. It's an odd one as blissful ignorance is often the safer route, so the person thinking they are being kind by correcting language on here is probably doing it because of their own embarrassment but can't confront that (parents inflicting the fear of saying the wrong thing is at odds with an idyllic childhood, they may do same to their kids etc).

I don't understand your point, you have no idea what class someone who is bothered about those things might think I am. Why would you doubt me when I say that it's not a subject that anyone I know in real life ever talks about?

Your experiences don't negate my reality, I'm not blinded by anything, simply stating a fact.

No need for the chippy instructions, I made no comment on whether bias was real

Oh, that’s very interesting — I had no idea! It must be slightly dizzying for the priest in question. If the chaplain is chatting with someone low in the hierarchy and an admiral shows up and addresses them, does the low in the hierarchy person then need to behave as if the chaplain is another admiral, despite them having been on a level thirty seconds earlier?