You don't need to follow specific rules to be middle class

[Skyrainlight]

I've found a few mumsnetters seem to think you need to follow rules to be middle class, words not to use, places not to shop, behaviour that's not ok, etc. It's odd to me. For me middle class just 'Is', based on upbringing and current life. Surely the middle class behaviour (whatever that is) just comes naturally.

Based on my current life and upbringing I would class myself as middle class if I was required to define it, but I'm not conventional and don't try to follow any rules, and I don't see it as the badge of honour some on MN seem to see it as.

I know a lot of people don't believe in classes, for the of this purpose pol I'm just asking: Do you feel you need to follow specific rules to be middle class?

YABU - yes, class is defined by rules that need to be followed
YANBU - no you don't have to try to be middle class you just are

If you are born into a comfortable middle class family you never think you are "following rules" because you absorb them so deeply, with your mother's milk, that it never occurs to you to do things any other way. There are therefore no "rules" that you are conscious of.

The same is true of upper class and working class families.

It only becomes a case of "following rules" if you are trying to "pass" as a member of a class you weren't born into.

I do not state this approvingly. It's just what I have observed.

What? It's one of the most salient signifiers. I would be very interested to hear how it isn't!

The British public school accent - even in Scotland they sound like this. You can literally set fire to everything about your life but if you speak like this it gives away your less than humble roots. Likewise any broad regional accent - they may have won the lottery, but sounding like that it's very obvious that their prosperity is a very recent development.

This isn't a value judgement, but it is the case. Why on earth do you think it isn't?

According to Agatha Christie and similar traditional (if slightly old-fashioned and xenophobic) sources, foreigners are always classified as being either a "good egg" or not. If you are (un)fortunate enough not to have originated in these soggy isles, you should be recommended to others like this - "DreamyRedNewt is a foreigner but a good egg and can be trusted".😁

@ShowOfHands exactly this being educated and working hard to have a comfortable lifestyle does not make you middle class!

My Mum grew up upper class I suppose. Titles in the family, London home and country home, pubic school, governess etc.

She went university met my dad who was working class - only child of a single parent on benefits etc.

I have grown up in the middle of it all (and I rather love that).

Generally the genuine middle class have no need to think about what they're doing, wearing, eating etc. My Mum mostly shops at Aldi/Lidl, wears clothes till they have completely worn out, only shops in sales and occasionally treats herself to something a little more expensive (to her) like Gudren Sjorden or Boden. SHe doesnt believe in being showy or paying more than she needs to for anything. She drives a SMART car.

She has a lot of savings owns a nice house and does spend money on holidays.

If you met her, you'd be under no illusion that she is anything other than middle class.

BUT I was brought up not to use certain words - non-you words. Setee, serviette, lounge, toilet and many more. Those are the things that seep in and are the signifiers to other middle class people.

Class is about the way you carry yourself, the manners you use, the words you use. You can learn it but it's not about wearing clothes from this shop or buying food from that shop. It's not about accents, you can have a northern accent and still be middle class.

even in Scotland they sound like this

Some middle class people in Scotland might, yes, but the vast majority of middle class Scottish people won't have an RP accent, don't be ridiculous.

Likewise any broad regional accent - they may have won the lottery, but sounding like that it's very obvious that their prosperity is a very recent development.

Do you realise how offensive that is?

Offensive? To whom, why? Do you just mean that you disagree and you're annoyed that you can't justify your arguments

@ShowOfHands it's often hard to tell at work, we all have our work persona. I think in the workplace it's more difficult to place people as we're all in a larger culture and in closer parameters. I don't think my colleagues think I'm very working class because I'm confident and they know I love in a nice area

I come from a working class family. I married a middle class man and now ostensibly live a middle class lifestyle. However, I don't fit in with my husband's family and colleagues because my accent and demeanour are suggestive of my original social background. I have a strong regional accent and none of the cultural experiences of being middle class. I don't follow the (unspoken) rules, so I occasionally feel awkward and out of place.

So as tragic as all this is, I have a friend who is obsessed with being seen as MC and it literally defines her life. She lives her life by rules and doesn't partake in things she enjoys but considers not MC (eg panto). At one point she was trying to train her daughter's hair to grow a certain way as she perceived MC hair to fall in a certain direction. It's peaked now as they're about to buy 'the house' (period house) complete with 30 year mortgage (at age of 45) and crippling repayments. It's madness as we can all see how desperate it all is.

Also, even if they have Scottish accents you tell the difference, Bearsden sounds very different to Maryhill. In fact, I'm genuinely struggling to think of anything which betrays your families economic status more than accent.

They’re not rules, they’re descriptions

Only those secure towards the top of the class structure have the luxury of dissing it.

Status matters.

I’m not sure the social or economic class indicators really make sense anymore except one: how you use your knife and fork.

It's rather offensive to claim that anyone with both prosperity and a broad regional accent has very obviously won the lottery or come into it via some other form of recent luck. If you can't see how then I don't know what to say. Are you sure you're not confusing public school with enunciation?

I always think (some) people on MN get class back to front. The essence of being middle class is that you have a background of sufficient material generational wealth to function as a safety net. People who have this also tend on average to have a certain range of interests, set of modes of expression etc, but it is not those interests or modes of expression that make them middle class and they wouldn’t stop being middle class by adopting different ones.

Reminds me of Kemi Badenoch saying she became working class when she got a job at McDonalds.

I’d say that these days the middle class are people who have access to money that can be leveraged with loans to buy property & businesses.

are you in that position?

People often lump upper middle class with middle class whereas in reality there’s a big gulf.

I think you are correct.

The funniest thing to me as growing up I always heard middle class issued as an insult, not something to be proud of

middle class has a lot of connotations I do not want to be associated with, if I had to claim something I'd guess I'd call myself working class. But obviously also above the rough as fuck lower class.
Because we all think we are better than somebody!
But joking aside this obsession with dividing people by class is dated an weird.
People are much more socially mobile than they were when terms like that were first used.
If you grew up the child of a hairdresser ajd a mechanic but are now a Dr. What are you?
If you are the child of Drs but are working in a pub behind the bar do you get demoted back down again? Is there a badge so everyone can tell? It's weird AF.

I'm quite sure the data bears this out.

Are you objecting to the fact I've said its down to luck? I think it's far more offensive to say its hard work as this implies that everyone else who didn't make it didn't try hard enough or put in the hours. Do you really believe wealth is an indicator of effort and worth? I don't, you're the one who is offensive.

💯 this!

Tight as anything? We’d never be friends, regardless of your class.

What is middle class really differs across the generations so it is different every 10-15 years or so and when you have a crisis like Covid and the ensuing cost of living, then the class differentials becomes starker.

For example, the experience of a typical middle class kid during Covid living in their own home with Ocado deliveries, one parent working from home and online music lessons etc will differentiate massively from a poorer kid. So when you ask about class you need to define the age group first.

For the younger generations middle class now means homeowner etc - it’s the defining experiences in each generation as much as what their parents/family are or were.

I didn't say anything about hard work or what wealth is in indicator of. I was objecting to the claim that it's down to recent luck such as winning the lottery if you have a broad regional accent, but your less-than-humble-roots if you have an RP one

And for what it's worth, I see all family money as luck. Children born into wealth have done nothing to earn it. But that's not what this thread is about.

They really are, does anyone ever talk about this in real life? They certainly dont in mine