To think we mums are utterly exhausted as it does take a village

[Namechsnger]

I was listening to a podcast where women were discussing the actual reason why modern day mums are absolutely exhausted cause raising a child was never a one or 2 people job but it was supported by whole extended family, lots of family members used to live together and support each other in raising children, that's what family was about. On top of that women used to stay home and not work which meant focusing solely on home and children, which I think would be easier to do than juggling home, kids and a job.
I am utterly exhausted with 2 children - a toddler and newborn and so are all my friends who have 2 children. People with one seem to be doing okay but still juggling all the plates.
I think this explains the ever slumping fertility rates in the West. Sigh!

Yanbu. 4 kids here. We run a family business too and I have what I think is chronic Burnout.

It's not fun. But my youngest is 5 and eldest 11 and I keep telling myself it's not forever!

I underestimated how hard it would be with no family support!

@Floatlikeafeather2 I did - and I lived in an area exactly as you described - most women didn't work full time, ( I did) if at all it was a bit of part time -people didn't move away- lots of relatives at hand etc - second time around marriage living in London was very different - although I dropped on then too as my in-laws lived about 18 miles away and used to have my son ( by choice) very regularly for several days at a time right from 6 months or so - they loved having him-

Well, for most of human history everyone in the tribe would have been engaged in whatever was needed to sustain the community: that might be hunting and gathering, weaving textiles, preparing food (the labour-intensive way: lots of using a quern to mill grain etc) etc. So yes, there would have been a lot more people around to help with the child care/rearing, but equally children would have had to fend for themselves much more (often being cared for by older children) or just tag along with their parents without having much attention paid to them.

You also see it on the theads about whose turn it is to work Christmas Child free colleugues who have worked it several times before get asked to swop by parents and sometimes a single parent who has no childcare for a Christmas Day shift asks her usually also female collugue to swop. When ive asked on these threads why these colleugues are more responsible for/owe the child more than the childs own FATHER....................tumbleweed.

Even now, the majority of mums do not work full-time if you look at the stats, so this idea everyone was working full-time long hours out of the home is not true unless you want to go back to the industrial revolution. People did work from home, doing jobs around children, but also accepted that other children (like early teens) would do childcare for the younger children, other family members would and would live closer.

There's no need to idealise it but it is very different. If you watch Rose on FB who is an African lady from Uganda who lives in China, she has just had a second child and what is most notable is that her child is held all the time, some of the time by her, but some of them time by her extended families, because the three brothers and their families share a house, and there are a lot of communal village events and friends around all the time. The downside is less privacy and cooking meals for lots of people, farming together, in their case, the plus side is that children are constantly held and played with and you are not alone with them on your own in a house waiting for someone else to come home, or trying to pick them up from nursery when you are frazzled and tired in the evenings.

It's just a different way of life, I chose to move near to my family when my children were tiny on purpose, it wasn't my favourite place in the world to live but I realised if I wanted a better life, with extended family and some type of career, it would be very beneficial to do so and I'm glad I made that decision. It wasn't a career driven move so much as a practical one and my mum cared for my children twice a week for many years.

It's well documented in multiple studies cross culturally that birth spacing in our ancestral societies was around 4 years.

Sources : The Foraging Spectrum by Bob Kelly.
Elena Bridgers- Lonely, stressed-out moms: Does the postindustrial social experience put women at risk for perinatal mood disorders?

I agree. On balance, I’m very glad that I live in a world where I had the opportunity to work and I’m not expected to shoulder the entire burden of the house and child-rearing – but both parents working full or almost full time just isn’t sustainable, imo. (Though I say that knowing I have no choice but to continue doing exactly that!)

Full-time is also more full on than it used to be for many, my parents came home pretty early from their professional jobs compared with now, had a big house, put their feet up in the evenings, it is not comparable with the demands on the same job these days which are much more intense.

Yes, I agree, neither of my Grannies worked after having children. One was probably middle class by today's references but the other wasn't. It wasn't village style upbringing for my parents, I have Scandinavian heritage though and that side were very private, unsure if it was just them or cultural.

I know a couple of people with the village set up and I think it has pluses and minuses. Pluses you get support and lots of it from what I can see but downside the bond between the young children and their Mum is not that strong.

I find being at work a lot less tiring than being with my kids. No-one screams at each other at work, or expects me to wipe their bum, or throws up everywhere, or calls me a poopy face.

You are not wrong. We lived away when our children were small and DH was rubbish. I did everything and I mean everything. All he did was go to work and back. The weekends we used to go to my mums were brilliant as mum would happily look after the children while I relaxed.

Now they are 17 & 19 I’m working my arse off to pay for accommodation at Uni. DS19 had a small job but earns nowhere near enough money to top up his accommodation fees. Once again, mum helps. What I would do without her I do not know.

If anything DCs have learnt to help me, eachother and themselves because they can see how hard it was for me alone. Hopefully they’ll be helpful to their partners

This! People are extremely lazy about friendships and maintaining their social circle. They only care about it when they need it but unfortunately it doesn't work like that. You have to put an effort and be there for people if you want them to be there for you.

This isn’t my experience. Where I live, for whatever reason, there are lots of young families who live far away from where they grew up. My group of “mum friends” all work. Our WhatsApp group often has messages saying “Jimmy is at after school club and I’m stuck in traffic, can someone grab him?” They’ll be taken home and given tea and a few weeks later Jimmy will have a friend over for the same reason. It’s a great town.

I absolutely agree with this.

Mine are teens now but tbh I found it loads of hassle explaining bedtime routine or fussy food requirements and I didn't like the inconsistency with rules so some extended family stricter than us. Plus, I was quite greedy about my time with my DC as I loved it on a whole, I'm a private person so didn't want involvement of others that much.

Yup, life was better for everyone when women had no choice but to stay at home and do womanly stuff, like looking after their own and other people's children.

If your DH does "a" fair share, how come it's only mums who are exhausted and not dads?

We all work full time, but only one of us is 9-5 and we all work locally, so there is usually someone around in a pinch.

I made these friends from the PTA mostly, we have a very small group doing everything so we got really close really quickly. It's quite bonding wrestling with gazebos and pulling off events much bigger than our number should allow.

I think maybe we are constantly asking each other to do stuff as part of that, so it's not so big a leap?

I work very full time and my kids go to breakfast and after school club. I have a village of friends. These relationships have built in part because we ask each other for help. The moments where we do are the vulnerable moments where we have made connections. That’s part of what’s built lasting friendships.

We also go for drinks etc fairly regularly once the work is done and the kids are in bed so it’s not all about the school run.

I don't really agree with this.

Some poor women just sent their kids out all day while they worked, or more often, the kids and the adults worked together.

But in a lot of wc families while women may have worked, it was sometimes in a more flexible way then men, or they had periods of being home with infants, or what happened very often is the extended family banded together to provide care in a way that fit their circumstances. Very often a grandmother who was no longer working herself.In some instances where families weren't so close, like the military, women banded together to do this among themselves.

I think we've tried to replace that with paid care, but the thing is, paid care is rarely flexible enough. It's not worth enough money for someone to provide the kind of help parents are really missing. People do it out of love and duty, not for pay unless you are wealthy enough to pay a lot.

How do you make those connections in the first place?

My children's mothers pretty much all worked full-time too. We didn't have time for chitchat and getting to know each other.

I had a friend who was always trying to get me to look after her children I just didn’t want to as they were so naughty. And mine didn’t really get in with her kids so I was reluctant to ask her to reciprocate The village was not an appealing concept to me

That's a good way to do it. There was no WhatsApp when mine were young.

YANBU. Raising children is hard, hard work, and one of the biggest reasons I'm CF. It's ironic that parents say the CF don't understand the work and sacrifices that parents go through. We understand it so well that we opted out.

In short, it's reasonable for you to be completely knackered. Can you tell your OH that you're going out doing Good Mum stuff all day, like Christmas shopping, but actually go to a spa or hotel and relax for the day? There are some websites where you can book a hotel just for the day. dayuse,com and hotelsbyday,com. (I put commas instead of full stops to avoid the websites coming up with their big ads.)

Edit: Sorry, I missed that you have a newborn, so probably can't get away for a whole day.

YANBU. We have a toddler, and twins who are now 9mo . Also a 9YO. When our DTs were newborn life was HARD. It’s still hard, but it’s getting easier. We had so many promises of help from family (not that we expect it) but got nothing. I am now back in FT work. DH is also FT. We have no village but we manage. We are both exhausted 🤣Our life, and relationship has changed, but you know what. It’s us against the world. Our DC are our everything, it’s the hardest time in our lives, and in years to come I would like to think we can say ‘we did that’. we have hard times, we have good times. Sometimes I feel envious at those who have the amount of support I fell would help us. But we will make sure we do for our DC what no one did for us. I would never let any of my children struggle through, but then again I know how difficult it is. It’s an eye opener, that’s for sure .You’re doing amazing ! Keep going, it gets better xx

I think wage stagnation and house prices are having more of an impact on fertility than the lack of village.

I don’t so much think it’s the pressure of work and dc as that did exist in the past. I’ve said this before but I think it’s the fact that as well as work and parenting you are meant to cook everything from scratch, have a Pinterest worthy house, a wardrobe to rival Kate Moss, train like an athlete, an active sex life, plenty of time for family, friends, partners and yourself. You are also expected to support your dc more and for longer these days. It’s a lot of pressure.