to not understand MNers against neurodiversity

[UkiUki]

Inspired by another thread on here today but it’s an ongoing trend.

I’ve noticed that most, if not all of the time, when a poster suggests that a behaviour may be caused by ND, other posters jump on them and seem enraged that ‘everything is explained away with neurodiversity these days’.

There has been a lot of progress in understanding these conditions which has naturally contributed to an increase in people getting diagnosed. It is especially increasing in females as, per most medical issues, the parameters for diagnoses were created around male behaviour.

As someone currently in the latter part of the long and stressful diagnosis process, my motivation to suggest ND when I recognise certain traits in situations described is that my heart goes out to those who could flourish with a little extra understanding of how their brains work, especially children. I believe I would be a different person now if I’d had the support I needed growing up, instead of just believing I was lazy, clumsy and weird.

I feel a lot of irritation and sometimes outright anger from some posters, and the suggestion that people are using ND as an excuse somehow.

Aibu to not understand where this annoyance comes from?

Thanks to all who have taken the time to share their experiences. Genuinely found this thread helpful for my understanding.

I do recruitment in the Civil Service and find that people are much more open about their ND diagnoses and asking for adjustments. I have worked with several colleagues with varying degrees of autism and other characteristics and try to be absolutely fair when assessing whether someone is a good fit for a particular role. I have certainly passed many people with a diagnosis (self declared).

There is still suspicion and bias amongst fellow panel members but it’s improving.

I still have my own biases. E.g. Have read the reports that basically anyone looking for an ADHD diagnosis will get it so it’s become meaningless. Have seen parents of my DC’s friends relentlessly pursue a diagnosis to get them some advantage such as a place in an over subscribed school or additional exam time or a bursary.

The complaints about modern education being ‘all must have prizes’ is moving to ‘all must have diagnoses’. It is a bit exhausting.

I do disagree. I believe you only get it if you're living it. There's no way on earth you can comprehend it otherwise.

Both my DC have complex needs including neurodiversity, they have had amazing support from teachers, support workers, family members and friends. My friends may not live my life with my DC daily but they absolutely get why things are harder or why my kids need a different approach to parenting. Yes there are some folk so lacking in basic empathy that they just don’t get it but, in my life, they are relatively few.

What reports suggest anyone looking for an ADHD diagnosis will get it?

I don't have a solution that would fix everything and work for everybody. What I firmly believe is that the parents who refuse to put in place any boundaries or consequences are definitely not helping (from your description it sounds like you're definitely not one of them, this is just a general rant aimed at some of the parents I've had to deal with over the years).

If nothing else, it is damaging for the other children in the class, especially girls imo. "Yes, Johnny hit you but he's not going to face any consequences because it's not his fault". So we're teaching children that it's ok to be hit in some circumstances and that they have to be "kind" and "understanding" in return.

Judging by the number of horrific dv posts on Mumsnet, I think we'd do better to teach kids to take an absolute 0 tolerance policy to violence. Someone hits you? Then they are not your friend, you do not have to play with them, and you are completely justified in ignoring them from now on.

Of course, there are many fantastic parents who do their best to acknowledge the needs of other's while advocating for their own child. I acknowledge it must be a terrible situation for them and there are no perfect answers. However, I will never stop being astonished by just how blinkered, short-term and delusional some parents can appear. It sometimes makes me want to stop teaching and get a job in a back office somewhere far away from entitled members of the public!

Playing Devil's Advocate for a moment - Are you saying that the point of consequences is to signal to other children that justice has been performed?

I thought the point of consequences is to try to reduce the likelihood of something happening again in the future. For some ND children in some scenarios, a consequence isn't going to achieve that - in fact it might achieve the opposite ie making them more dysregulated/anxious so they are more likely to hit. What would make the hitting less likely in the future is probably something more proactive which happens before any hitting is imminent.

"you do not have to play with them, and you are completely justified in ignoring them from now on" - this is totally separate to school consequences, isn't it?

Certainly, one of the main reasons for consequences is to reduce the chance of the behaviour reoccurring. Though I would argue that it's not just aimed at the original 'instigator' (can't think of better word at the moment) but also to reduce the likelihood of similar behaviour from others.

So in an adult context, if I see other people get away with e.g. shoplifting, I might be more likely to try myself.

I'm especially focusing on the effects of difficult behaviour on others because that's one of the main points of contention between parents of Nd kids (and many Nt kids in other contexts) and schools.

The school is trying to juggle multiple conflicting needs. The parents are only focused on their own child - which I understand, that's their job, but they sometimes refuse to even consider that any other child has needs.

I often come back to thinking "so what?" when a parents explains their child is Nd. I know they are, but what comes next? Some parents don't go beyond that first explanation to try to explore strategies to help/mitigate. Of course, many parents do, in which case it is a school's duty to try to work with them as constructively as possible.

If nothing else, it is damaging for the other children in the class, especially girls imo. "Yes, Johnny hit you but he's not going to face any consequences because it's not his fault".

Surely it should be “yes Johnny hit you, that wasn’t ok and this is what we’re going to do to keep you safe in school” while working with Johnny to access the supports he needs to be safe around other kids.

Yes, it should be, and sometimes is. But other times a more toxic narrative of kindness no matter what is pushed instead (by teachers as well).

There's sometimes the feeling that the NT kid is more resilient and can deal with a difficult school environment better than their Nd peer, so the latter should be prioritised. I've had conversations with parents where they basically argue word-for-word for exactly that. I vehemently disagree.

The school is trying to juggle multiple conflicting needs. The parents are only focused on their own child - which I understand, that's their job, but they sometimes refuse to even consider that any other child has needs.

The other child’s needs aren’t my concern though - this is something repeatedly said to me when my ND daughter was being seriously bullied by NT kids in her class. I knew the other kids had their own vulnerabilities and while the school needs to balance those needs, I don’t and certainly not at my daughters expense.

I literally don’t care what needs another child has when my own daughter is vulnerable in her own right and being terrorised by other kids. And certainly not if it means kids actively bullying her are being given space to do so on the basis that they have a difficult home life. I don’t need the school to punish the other kids, I do need them to keep my daughter safe.

Oh come on, name me a school that doesn’t put consequences into place if children are physically attacked? How are they passing Ofsted safeguarding inspections?

If you are a teacher you must know that it’s perfectly possible to put in meaningful consequences and procedures so that it doesn’t happen again. All school should be doing that. If they’re not and have children repeatedly attacked by children ALL children are being let down. A child repeatedly attacking other children is not having his/her( yes girls can lash out) needs met.

It’s funny I work in a school with a high level of need and children getting hurt by other children is rare. When it happens for whatever reason consequences and procedures are put in place. Nearly all our children who have a tricky start make so much progress year on year.

The demonising on here of autistic children and parents seeking diagnosis and support is appalling.

Yes, I would agree. A difficult home life, or neuro divergence, or anything at all should not be used as an excuse for bad behaviour. It can be a good reason for it that can hopefully help prevent repeats in the future, but it is not an excuse.

Anyone being bullied is unacceptable, no matter how difficult the bully's home life is. No aggression towards other kids is acceptable, no matter who is Nd or not.

I suppose I'm especially worked up at the moment because the Irish government has just come out with new guidelines to prevent the use of "seclusion" against vulnerable kids. Sounds great on the surface, but included in the definition of seclusion is "physically preventing a student from leaving through the use of a locked door, a blocked door or an exit held closed by a staff member."

So imagine a student has a meltdown, the other kids are scared and potentially in danger, I as the only adult present decide to get my class out into the corridor where they're safe and keep the kid having a meltdown safe inside the classroom (where I can see them through the glass) until another adult arrives who can help them.

Then the parents of the Nd child complain that I am unfairly punishing their child and going against the guidelines etc. But if I didn't separate the kids, then all the other parents would be complaining that their children are being stressed and exposed to aggression and potentially dangerous behaviour.

It's a horrible catch-22 situation and I'm exhausted just thinking about it.

I agree the demonising on here of autistic kids and parents needing support is appalling. It is possibly political, too. I think autistic kids are the new benefit claimants and asylum seekers, seen as an easy target for demonisation and cuts.
I am beginning to develop the suspicion this site is overrun by shills, to be honest. Explains the anti- neurodiversity the OP feels she has seen on here.

I’m not the only one who feels autistic people are being dragged into the culture wars
https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/oct/14/autistic-children-culture-wars-kemi-badenoch

Why are ND children in your school regularly having melt downs? Melt downs are due to needs not being met .

I don't think I'm demonising anyone, but have you really never had parents push back and refuse to support your school in ensuring consequences? Sure, the schools do it anyway because that's our job, but if the parents undermine the message at home then it's unhelpful to put it mildly. Also, some of the procedures put in place for everyone's safety are then criticised by the parents as being unfair, so then more time and effort is needed discussing things with them etc.

I guess I'm just exhausted and at the end of my patience with people who complain about every reasonable step taken by the school. Maybe I just need the Xmas break to recharge so I can be less grumpy about everything.

They aren't, but over a long career and in a school of several thousand pupils, the numbers do start adding up. It's also the pressure of the "what if". We have to plan for every reasonable eventuality, and a kid having a meltdown is a reasonable possibility. It's tiring to know that no matter what you do, someone won't be happy about it.

I think it more my kid jumpzd in a puddle my kid had a tantrum my kid wont eat x y n z my kid said x y z all these r signs of nd er no thet r signs of normal kids it seems to be a competition on here to get kids diagnosis from day n hour they r born so the parent can fit in with latzst trends

His ND is your problem if it is impacting on your daughter. I'm not sure what your point is here. In order for your daughter (and the other childrens) schoolday to be safe and happy this boy needs support and understanding.

By reducing the focus on this boy he is more likely to become dysregulated and cause disruption to the class.

I hate it when people say 'I'm ND, so other People who are neurodivergent should do exactly what I do.'
Each person has their own unique challenges and your experiences are your own and don't necessarily work for others.

As a society we should be more understanding and inclusive and change school and work environments to help people teach their full potential.

We manage children with autism without restraining and locking them in rooms, starting to see why so many kids with autism are abused by services.

”the numbers start to add up”- as I said what is your school doing?We don’t have hoards of children hurt by ND children or ND needing to be restrained. 🤔We meet their needs and have safeguarding measures in place.

The problem with this is that a change to help one person might not help another. There comes a point where it’s unworkable, hence why a general standard of conformity currently exists.

Equally we have to respect the needs of everyone in society, so certain rules have to apply irrespective or the difficulty some people may have in complying with them

Eg. It should be absolutely unacceptable to sexually or physically harass/assault. I'm afraid I don't care how difficult someone finds it to adhere to those rules, everyone deserves to feel safe from physical or sexual harassment /assault when they go to work /school/ out in the world generally

@BertieBotts and @Sugarcoldturkey the ideal result of bad behaviour would be something that did both.

So if my DS does something silly (banging the milk bottle on the table, calling his sister dumb) we ignore it (often he will then draw attention to his behaviour which we also then ignore!) but tell DD why we are ignoring it. So she can then try that strategy for herself, which she has started to do.

If he hurts someone on purpose or does something to get attention but which could be dangerous for him (e.g. waving scissors around, prancing around naked when we're answering the door) then it's "do you want to do that or do you want your screen time" and we are now up to at least 75% of the time he wants screen time and desists. It has to be immediate and presented as a choice, and it's only worth doing for more serious things where one instance can be dangerous. DD then sees him getting a consequence and we had to persist and also recognise the time limits - no good telling him he'd choosing between pulling his sister's hair now and playing on his Switch tomorrow.

@BertieBotts yes! You have just articulated this perfectly.

Tbh I find this sort of emotive, exaggerated language very emotionally draining to listen to. There obviously aren't "hoards" of children being "locked up" anywhere. I wish we could have debates on this topic without reaching for hyperbolic language that just inflames a situation rather than de-escalates and reassures. It's exhausting.