to not understand MNers against neurodiversity

[UkiUki]

Inspired by another thread on here today but it’s an ongoing trend.

I’ve noticed that most, if not all of the time, when a poster suggests that a behaviour may be caused by ND, other posters jump on them and seem enraged that ‘everything is explained away with neurodiversity these days’.

There has been a lot of progress in understanding these conditions which has naturally contributed to an increase in people getting diagnosed. It is especially increasing in females as, per most medical issues, the parameters for diagnoses were created around male behaviour.

As someone currently in the latter part of the long and stressful diagnosis process, my motivation to suggest ND when I recognise certain traits in situations described is that my heart goes out to those who could flourish with a little extra understanding of how their brains work, especially children. I believe I would be a different person now if I’d had the support I needed growing up, instead of just believing I was lazy, clumsy and weird.

I feel a lot of irritation and sometimes outright anger from some posters, and the suggestion that people are using ND as an excuse somehow.

Aibu to not understand where this annoyance comes from?

I'm very vocal on parenting threads when I see significant commonality with my own experience. Then I see there will always be comments such as not everyone is ND and a group who will be eager to highlight ineffective parenting as the cause. Some seem to revel in berating parents as being ineffectual.

I see both sides; that it feels like an insult to the large ND population when a poster is highlighting very difficult and what look like really nasty behaviours and someone then says - oh ND.

For me,it is so much more than that. I notice the feelings the OP is sharing, the fact that they are communicating as clearly very competent and unable to comprehend why typical approaches that they've exhausted to death haven't worked. Posters who have not lived this therefore would not see what those of us living this do see or relate to. As these parenting related thread unfolds, there's nearly always a family member mentioned who is ND. Even after this there will be posters keen to highlight the ineffectual parenting. I believe these are primarily parents who don't have ND kids and have a need to ' other' people as crap parents so they can't possibly be one themself.

The others who have ND kids who don't act this way will also not get it because as we all know, every ND person is different with a very possible combination of co morbidities at play.

Despite this, there is always a common theme and a common feeling and words used by posters when their kids are Autistic with a PDA profile. Only those of us living it get it, see it, understand it and therefore will say ' have you considered '. I wish someone had said that to me a bit sooner!

Generally, yes, I agree OP. Many have a problem with this. A few of the reasons I've mentioned above I believe feed into that.

But your DS may overcome his anxiety, and there are good treatments for anxiety in ND people.
The other mum's DS will never overcome his learning disability.
Which is why I agree that DLA or PIP should need renewing. My DS is less anxious than he was, but his epilepsy is worse than it was 5 years ago but better than it was in the summer. Hell always have ADHD but its effects will vary depending on how he's treated.

So, there are lots of strategies I use such as alarms, giving myself extra time, aiming for an earlier train, pretending I have to be places half an hour earlier than I really do and telling myself that time out loud several times to trick my brain, setting out clothes and toiletries in the order I have to use them, labelling things so I don’t forget what I’m meant to do next then spend time wandering around, setting time limits on websites and apps so they kick me out, timers on lights to stop me going to bed too late. Sometimes the strategies work but sometimes they don’t, especially now having children, as if there’s a deviation to the plan like there often is with children I struggle to get back on schedule.

How do you know they weren't depressed? You never really know how someone is feeling. I had a period of depression and attempted to take my own life. No one other than my DH had a clue I was depressed.

This is and honest view coming from someone who had a NT child then an autistic child several years later. It felt great to be praised on how polite, intelligent, friendly, well behaved my oldest child was, I felt really proud of myself and like I was doing a great job parenting. I did judge other parents and think when their child was behaving certain ways or delayed in development it was down to the parenting. I think some of those who come out with things such as "it's an excuse" "everyone has it these days" "they need to just parent their child" just don't want to lose that impression that they have done such a great job parenting. I think for some of those who are ND/parents to ND children they also may feel jealous that there is more understanding and acceptance now but they had to struggle through a time where there wasn't so much understanding and support. As for those who say they managed life without a diagnosis and extra support as they weren't diagnosed until adulthood, well, that can't really be accurate. If they've managed life fine why would they even be seeking a diagnosis as an adult, they'd just be getting on with their lives happily. So again, I think that's jealousy that they missed out on support so don't feel others should get it

You, correctly, called someone’s statement “
‘offensive’ and then went on to be offensive yourself. It’s really not acceptable to say “MN is a bit schizophrenic “.

You, again correctly, called our ableism on here but you have been ableist yourself.

Be the change you want to see in the world and all that.

I find job interviews really challenging. As a reasonable adjustment I ask for the questions in advance which gives me time to plan my answers in a stress free environment before I've got a panel of people staring at me!

Despite this, there is always a common theme and a common feeling and words used by posters when their kids are Autistic with a PDA profile. Only those of us living it get it, see it, understand it and therefore will say ' have you considered '. I wish someone had said that to me a bit sooner!

All of which is fine (except I don’t think you only get it if you’ve lived it). But threads then develop some kind of tunnel vision. There’s one where the OP has repeatedly said they’ve considered ND but their child doesn’t meet the criteria other than one area. Cue lots of posters saying no but you’re missing something, I had X trait too and I was diagnosed, despite the OP assertion that knowing her child as she does, she doesn’t meet any of the criteria even allowing for differences in presentation between boys and girls.

Is it really “offensive” to use an adjective in the correct context? From the OED:

2.b.
1938–
figurative and in extended use. Having or characterized by inconsistent or contradictory elements.

Yes and that’s from 1938. Language has moved on.

Doubling down isn’t helpful. People with mental health diagnoses experience a lot of stigma and discrimination.

It really is not a description to use on a post where you go on to talk about ableism..

Thats interesting because I imagine interview situations are extremely stressful for a lot of people, whether they are ND or not. Realistically I imagine most people would prefer to be given the questions in advance to plan good answers that reflect their true abilities. In fact, I doubt there are many people wouldn’t want the questions in advance.

I guess what I’m trying to get at is a lot of adjustments that autistic people would like for themselves would probably be of benefit to everyone.

This is maybe why I’ve found myself unable to think of anything, that as an autistic person, I would like changing. Because in a lot of cases, ordinary people also struggle with these things and it would be unreasonable for me to ask for/expect changes that a lot of NT people struggle with aswell. So I feel that it’s up to me to try and work a way round it, or essentially just get on with it.

I hope that doesn’t sound horrible, but that’s how my ND brain seems to work.

@Jifmicroliquid yes we do sound a bit similar 😆

I agree with you that having more flexibility in the way services, jobs etc operate would benefit everyone - not just autistic people.

It would also give autistic people more choice in jobs, for example I doubt I'd make it into the civil service due to testing (I work in local government).

It'd also benefit society in general and those organisations too, as we have a lot to offer.

@Jifmicroliquid I think although job interview questions in advance would be a good thing for lots of people, it would be particularly beneficial for people who have slower processing or working memory differences, which are common in autism. I don't think it's just that some of us would like it, it's more that it would help put us on an even playing field as most people don't have those differences in play when being interviewed.

In the example I gave, everyone was given the questions in advance, but I was the highest scoring candidate. I sincerely doubt I would have been if I hadn't had that little bit of time before to process the question. I'm now the highest performer in my team.

I think neurodiversity and some sort of affect on capacity or capability (whether trauma related) is in region of 40%.

So yeah it's massive and explains sooooo much.

Actually, many employers will give all candidates the questions in advance if a candidate asks for it, to ensure fairness.

I have a job interview next week. The employer is giving out the questions one day in advance to Everyone to be inclusive. I feel this is great because although interviews are tough on everyone they are even tougher on those who have struggle with social communication.

For me, even though I am verbal and can write well I can struggle with putting thoughts into words. It’s like my language processing runs slower than everyone else’s. I need time to answer questions. I also find it hard to generate small talk and try to plan in advance some things to talk about if I have any social event to go to. People often ask me questions and get annoyed when I look at them blankly and trying to process what was said and put an answer into words.

I can also struggle to understand language beyond the non literal and won’t always get straight away what intention of the question is. Questions the day before allow time to think about the meaning and what it is that they want to hear from me.

Many well qualified autistic people can’t get past the interview stage and are actually unemployed. Unless high level social skills whilst thinking on your feet are central to the role, I would say interviews can be a form of discrimination.

I think it’s great when those with a neuro- developmental social communication disorder progress to the stage where communication is not a problem, but this is a spectrum and it is not possible for all of us. It is not possible for many to speak or work at all. There is also a spectrum of support needs in people who can speak and can work. My problems are not a lack of effort on my part, they are the in my neurology. I can’t change that the structure of my brain won’t allow my to process language and social information as it should.

My processing is so distorted. If I’m am in a group conversation I cannot sense when it is my turn to talk. It’s like I am always out of time. This leads to me either accidentally interrupting or being too quiet. Both scenarios lead to me being accused of being rude.

If I am in a crowded restaurant, I can hear everyone talking but cannot hear what is being said to me by the person I want to talk to. It’s like my brain can hear everything and nothing. This can also be a problem in a busy open plan office. The job I have applied for means taking calls from clients, I will have to request a quiet area to work. It’s a hybrid role but they want me in the office sometimes. I can manage the communication with clients as the advice I will be giving is knowledge based and technical and not small talk!
I have the knowledge in advance.

i actually feel I need to work a lot from home to avoid burnout. I have suffered breakdowns trying to push through the sensory and social side of work and the commute in the past. I have looked for roles where this is possible.

I would also like to say the root of all these problems is likely to be in my cerebellum. This brain part has been shown to be smaller in autopsies on autistic people.

This part of the brain deals with movement and coordination and is likely also play a role in language and social cognition. Most people will feel nervous in interviews. Most people won’t have a brain that can’t process fully what is needed to complete the interview.

I am also always covered in bruises due to extreme clumsiness.

As the teacher listening to parents explain their kids "lashing out" because of autism, I inwardly ask so what? I believe your child has autism. I believe that it is causing a lot of the behaviour issues. However, am I supposed to be ok being hit in my workplace? Are other children supposed to be fine with an unpredictable, sometimes aggressive child in their midst? Are there to be no consequences for bad behaviour because a child is Nd? How will that teach them and the other children what behaviour is expected?

I am happy to work with parents to put strategies in place, to try different approaches etc but I would appreciate it if parents would also look at things from the perspective of the other parents, children and teachers involved.

Just to add, obviously not all children with autism behave in the way I described. Many are an absolute delight to teach. Generalisations to describe all Nd children are of course not helpful.

I've seen this too and basically I think children are occasionally given a diagnosis as a way of getting them some support rather than nothing, especially when there are no functional adults attending to their needs. Although it's more common to see the opposite - children who are obviously ND and parents won't agree to assessment for various reasons OR are stuck on a waiting list for literally years.

I've also dealt with an adult who was desperate to get an autism diagnosis. He had self-diagnosed and was using his 'autism' to behave appallingly. He was furious when a whole psych team bluntly told him he didn't have autism and no, they would not be supporting reasonable adjustments in his workplace for a condition he didn't have. Also telling people to fuck off whenever he felt like it wasn't because he had autism and reasonable adjustments didn't include telling people to fuck off.

And if a TA is a teaching assistant no I'm not a TA. I'm not heroic enough to deal with what they endure on their frankly insulting wages. My friend is a assistant who was formerly a teacher and who jacked it in. She'll be leaving her job as soon as her youngest leaves primary school. They are desperate to fill the shortage of both teachers and assistants in her school because of the nightmare parents I previously described. Most of the ND pupils she works with are fantastic children doing their best. A handful have toxic behaviours and attitudes because the adults 'raising' them are toxic.

@Deeperthantheocean and sorry I know you didn't ask about me being a TA someone else did pages ago and I can't be bothered hunting back through!

I think the “dash” means “to date” ie it’s still in extended use today. That is the context in which it was intended anyway.

@Sugarcoldturkey of course you shouldn’t just be “okay” with being hit, and nor should the children in your class. But what is the solution for these autistic children with that specific presentation? LA’s seem to want them in MS schools, while plenty of fellow parents seem to want them in some kind of secure accommodation away from everyone else (which is of course what used to happen). Should we be so regressive? We don’t take that approach with MH, some presentations of which can also have adverse effects.

I am not, and would never justify violence. I have stood over my child while he writes a letter apologizing for his actions, apologized myself in the class WhatsApp group and to teachers, even stood up in a parents meeting to explain my child’s disability and apologise (in advance) for his communication difficulties. Ive gone cap-in-hand to the LA, cried on the SENco… I’ve done consequences, withheld treats, confiscated toys… I’ve tried therapy (for both of us), I’ve read books, indulged teachers’ and hcp’s theories about his behaviour, and strategized my socks off. What I’ve learned is: nothing makes a difference to DS. Oh, and I am exhausted with it!

I don’t want to be that “sorry, he’s ND” parent making excuses, but it’s all I’ve got, and occasionally my DS has to leave the house and demonstrate just what “social and communication difficulties” can look like, for an unlucky few.

Can I just say a big thank you for trying to do something. I once had quite serious issues with an adult with MH problems. I was told 'oh he can't help it", "you know he's like that". I didn't know he was like that. I didn't know he didn't take responsibility for his behaviour and blamed everyone else for it. If I did I would have stayed the hell away from him.

I do disagree. I believe you only get it if you're living it. There's no way on earth you can comprehend it otherwise. The only exception I'd say is a professional assessor with extensive experience and that's only some of them. The stuff I've heard SENCOs say and so called MH professionals say is mind-blowing. Young women are often diagnosed by so called professionals with Borderline Personality Disorder and they just needed a professional experienced in assessing for Autism or ADHD.

I continually said 'oh it can't be Autism ' because my child doesn't do this, they are sociable they do this they do that. And this is how it goes. It's almost formulaic in how this unfolds for many of Not one person backed me in my insistence something was going on which says it all. Mum's always know if they just listen to their instincts and just research a bit more and ignore stereotypes such as lining up cars and is not sociable.

I'm NT, so by living it I mean only as a parent. I've no idea regarding adults and would not be able to offer much there on those threads as I don't understand that experience.

I have not read one single thread involving kids /parenting where someone suggested ND and I disagreed. Not one yet. The ones saying it's worth considering will be parents with similar ND kids most the time I would say.

That is a really good point @Tittat50 - sometimes you can recognise just by what's coming through in the text.

Maybe that's why it feels similar to the "People cry LTB too easily" threads? Because people with lived experience can detect something which seems invisible to others?

I know that with the LTB threads I worked out what the unsaid thing was - it's basically when you can see from a poster's descriptions of how their partner relates to them that their partner has contempt for them or doesn't have compassion for them, at all. And to someone looking from the outside, they'd see something like "He didn't make you a sandwich? WTF? Why are people saying LTB over him not making you a sandwich?? I don't make my partner a sandwich, I guess he should leave me!"

Because it's not about the sandwich, it's about the entire scenario around the sandwich, OP is often completely ground down and exhausted and has nothing left from trying to meet their partner's demands all the time and then he has an opportunity to make amends by noticing that she is struggling and he completely blanks it. (There are usually multiple examples of this on the threads, too.)

There must be a similar thing with "Maybe it's ND?" threads - I think it's probably the ones where the OP has already tried all of the usual parenting approaches and literally nothing ever works. Then they get infuriating responses

"You need to get really strict. Find his currency. Take his bedroom door off and make him earn it back."

"You are being much too strict! OMG you shouted once!! That's why he is shouting back at you."

"You haven't tried enough things. If something isn't working you need to try something else."

"You are trying too many things!! No wonder he is confused!" (When they list say 8-10 approaches they have tried over the course of 4 years or so).