to not understand MNers against neurodiversity

[UkiUki]

Inspired by another thread on here today but it’s an ongoing trend.

I’ve noticed that most, if not all of the time, when a poster suggests that a behaviour may be caused by ND, other posters jump on them and seem enraged that ‘everything is explained away with neurodiversity these days’.

There has been a lot of progress in understanding these conditions which has naturally contributed to an increase in people getting diagnosed. It is especially increasing in females as, per most medical issues, the parameters for diagnoses were created around male behaviour.

As someone currently in the latter part of the long and stressful diagnosis process, my motivation to suggest ND when I recognise certain traits in situations described is that my heart goes out to those who could flourish with a little extra understanding of how their brains work, especially children. I believe I would be a different person now if I’d had the support I needed growing up, instead of just believing I was lazy, clumsy and weird.

I feel a lot of irritation and sometimes outright anger from some posters, and the suggestion that people are using ND as an excuse somehow.

Aibu to not understand where this annoyance comes from?

People across the spectrum require different resources. Nobody is taking away anything from anybody.

And as for advocating what are you on about?

You seem quite ignorant. You need to reach a high threshold to get a diagnosis of autism.

This. My son is ND and since his young age I have told parents about this. Not to excuse his behaviour but to understand that his understanding of the world is different and he might overstep boundaries because he needs more time to learn. Some have been really understanding and even told their kids to help him out by being very clear and tell him straight out if something bothers them. Like him talking too loudly, standing too close etc etc. Rather than just blank him this has helped him immensely.

Where do you draw the line? Your experience of autism didn’t speak for all.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/dec/01/the-good-doctors-version-of-autism-masks-the-reality-of-badly-failed-children?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR3XkM5xeZ4iwb7hfcs2X3jSma241YXc3FhgLMLVuSQ4d4Nn3ckO5RGQiRoaemGWEyV2fTBxAGA6BCgE1bvw

This is a more recent article looking at issues of self advocacy and dx criteria. There are others especially around the date that "profound" autism was started to be discussed as a way of distinguishing those severly impacted.

I'm sorry if you're struggling to access support for someone who is non verbal and requires 24 hr care because of autism, i really am. The system is under resourced and there's not enough support for those people.

But my dc, who is not non verbal and doesn't need 24hr care, has valid needs as well, and i won't apologise for trying to meet those needs. i genuinely believe that if my dc receiving a diagnosis impacts your dc, then it's the system that is at fault, not my child. He can't just switch off his autism and adhd because it's inconvenient for other people. The previous government stripped the provisions for autistic people to the bone. That's not my child's fault and he deserves to get the support he needs too - which are very likely to be very different to the support your child needs anyway.

Very true

What a ridiculous badly researched and incorrect piece of journalism.

Far too much to quote however this illustrates the ignorance in spades.

” For those with milder conditions, things have indeed improved. Schools have often become more inclusive over the decades, making allowances for different abilities and efforts to combat bullying.”

No things have not bloody improved . There is no “mild” autism. There is a high threshold with traits having a significant impact on life being part of it. The bullying and suicide stats for those with autism are massive. Over 60% of autism children experience bullying, some sources quote 95%. There is no support for autism and SEN provision is on its knees with little provided.

The author had a clear agenda and provided zero meat to her laughable article. All she could do was bemoan extra time in exam figures and quote Kemi Badenoch as feeling re there is too much privilege and protection for those with autism. 🤔

If you look at my first post on this thread, I've said very similar to your post above. I do believe all people with needs should have them met. I think giving separate dx is the way forward and including parent carers in the discussion. I'm not on my own with thinking this, the term profound autism is being used as a way to do this, with more professionals/ groups taking this on.

My ds does have his needs met very well but I'm acutely aware that they may not always be and being able to say his diagnosis and have people understand what that means is necessary and that has changed.

Your post does prove my point to some extent. You acknowledge the differences in the children's presentation and the varying needs and provision required to meet them but you'll (rightly) advocate and fight for those needs regardless of the impact on others. It's ok i do the same for my ds. That's why I support the use of profound autism to distinguish. I'm also aware that by doing this support, funding and accomodations can be ringfenced officially or unofficially and those with less severe needs won't be included in that support (similar to how aspergers or high functioning used to stop people accessing support for autism). It's not right or fair but I too want my ds to be protected. This is already bring reflected in some of the changes proposed to sen law in the UK where more kids will be expected to have their needs met without an ehcp and only those with severe send will have ehcpntype provision (I'll look for a link to support this- it's worth a read for all send parents).

How can your child’s diagnosis impacts others who present differently? They have differing needs and services. And yes all children have a right to an education and the right treatment, healthcare and support. Reasonable adjustments are also not a luxury but a right.

Also I’d like to point out to others that many verbal ND people are severely impacted requiring several services and support (even supportive living) to keep alive.

@Acrossthemountains

https://www.specialneedsjungle.com/language-matters-definition-send-shifting-should-worried/

I think this is a good read on the subject.

https://www.autismparentingmagazine.com/profound-autism-term/

https://www.ncsautism.org/blog//new-review-articleprofound-autism-an-imperative-diagnosis

https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/inspectrum/202112/lancet-commission-calls-new-category-profound-autism

@ChristmasGrump5 a few more links but I'm sure you can search the subject yourself.

The latest DSM was published in 2022. Not decades ago

My post was in reply to someone who feels that more people being diagnosed with autism is a bad thing for fear of taking something away from the people most severely affected. I agree with you, my child being autistic shouldn't affect anyone else at all.

I want everyone with autism to be diagnosed if they want to be, and to have the support they need whatever that looks like. I don't see more people being diagnosed as a bad thing.

I have seen too many instances of but s/he's ND, including being shouted by the individual, to excuse loud, violent, anti social behaviour.

My DS8 has classic autism, diagnosed at 3. His presentation is pretty much loud, violent and anti-social, despite parents and specialist school working tirelessly with his communication issues. What you and other posters are saying is “this kind of ND is okay, but this other type over here is totally unacceptable” as though people get to choose their presentation from an autism menu. My DS autism cannot be “cured” by parenting or boundaries - any more than your, more socially-acceptable type can. God knows I’ve tried.

My comment was in reply to someone who said that modern diagnostics and the widening of the net are the problem. The DSM being updated in 2022 supports my point that the more we learn about ND, the diagnostic criteria changes.

Events aren’t simply distressing anymore, they’re traumatic.
Someone hasn’t fucked up because they are human, they must be a narcissist
You can’t have a falling out with your spouse without it being labelled as abusive
Your parents weren’t just trying to muddle through as best they could in their own, imperfect way. They were toxic and you have childhood trauma.

I am sick to the back teeth of it

I'm on the waiting list for an ND assessment, referred by my GP, who I approached on the advice of my psychotherapist. All my life, I've struggled at work, at school and with relationships. I work with clients with MH and ND issues, and I recognise so many behaviours in myself that I see in ND clients.

I also now recognise ND behaviours that my late father and at least one of his siblings had.

If I am ND, and had been diagnosed earlier in life, my life might have been very different. I might not have been fired from my well paid public sector job because of excessive sick leave which, with hindsight, may well have been down to autistic burnout. I could have sought adjustments which may have prevented it. I may have understood why I really struggle with some aspects of relationships and managed them better, or had more understanding from friends and partners, instead of being dismissed as being "weird" or "stroppy". And I may have been able to get the right sort of help in dealing with my history of trauma.

I think anything that helps people develop an understanding of how and why they struggle with stuff and thus develop strategies to cope better with them is a good thing, tbh. I don't get why anyone should resent or object to that.

Sounds like you're spending too much time on MN.

Do we not realise that if everyone is a ‘little bit ND’ then that actually means that it’s typical not diverse

The more watered down it becomes, the more pointless it is and the more people who badly need support and do actually fit criteria are let down.

This insta/tik tok version of ND is insane. People scrolling through SM shopping for a diagnosis for themselves are making a mockery of people who are actually suffering.

It’s not only on MN, nor is it only online. I see this in real life all the time. People are desperate to use clinical language to explain everything when most of them don’t know what it means

I don't think it's only the recognising, its the increased level of acceptance.
My brother started questioning if he was 'different' at about 11/12, and there was some talk about Aspergers being a possible option, but my parents were terrified that he would lose his private school scholarship if he was diagnosed as SEN, and this was actually the only thing which was helping him manage. He really struggled in a big mainstream primary but flourished in a small independent, and having a diagnosis at that point (late 1980's) could have done him more harm than good, due to attitudes to ND being much less accepting than they are now.

I am sure if my child was profoundly affected I would want a quick way to signify it to people and I respect that view and I hope it happens for them.

I am nervous about this change happening because I think it will impact on my child. At the moment the terms covers a broad spectrum. Which I feel makes people engage with how does it affect your child as they know it's broad.

My son goes to a special school. He actually has 2 to 1 support and he won't do gcses but he can learn some things. He has the typical spiky profile basically.

People always talk as if you are either profound or in mainstream with some adjustments and high anxiety. I think separating it out again will definitely lead to people having expectations on him to be more like a specific presentation than he is.

I recognise its not all about us and I hope everyone gets what they need basically
I was just explaining how I can understand that different criteria or diagnoses can impact on others.

You know, I wonder if some of this "but she/he is ND" being shouted is being misconstrued.

Difficult without a specific example. But I've seen it fairly often where a parent has said to school etc these are DC's needs, school say oh yes, very good very good, they pay lip service to them and then whether it's poor communication or the chaos of the school environment, overworked teachers or outdated ideas about autism or whatever - the needs get totally forgotten and they start treating the child as though they don't have autism or an EHCP at all. Then the child becomes distressed and the unacceptable behaviours come back, and the parent is frustrated because what they see is the child being set up to fail. Whereas what the school see is the unacceptable behaviour and a parent "making an excuse".

I get that every teacher can't be an expert in every possible condition that a child might have but that's exactly why there is supposed to be paperwork and such. It's clearly not working, what would need to change in the current system for that kind of thing to work better?

I'm only halfway through the thread and can see there are already lots of replies from fully-informed people with nuanced views. So I'll keep this short!

The leap to "ND" for all and any bad behaviours pisses me off no end. Amongst other things, it carries the assumption that ND people are rude, selfish, difficult people to be around. Plenty of you aren't.

This assumption comes with a large serving of "they can't help it, it's ND" meaning everyone else should just suck it up. They won't. The general public is under no obligation to suffer rudeness or, indeed, to give a shit about the rude person's reasons for acting like a twat.

Finally, the reason you get a diagnosis and special accommodations is that you have a disability. You have a social disability; it's a fundamental requirement for diagnosis. This automatically means your opinions on other people's social behaviours are likely to be impaired and you are poorly equipped to analyse NT people's interactions with you or anyone else. If more of you grasped this basic point, you wouldn't keep pissing people off by trying to label arseholes as autistic and/or telling NT people not to communicate the way they do.

Thank god some of you do get it!