To think that if a man has had bottom surgery they should be put in a woman’s prison?

[Bex5490]

Genuinely interested in this and not trying to goad just want to understand.

When people talk of the threat of a man in women’s spaces, I assume the danger is because of their penis.

So if that’s gone then should they be categorised as a woman?

I’m kind of of the opinion that if you’re willing to put that much effort in (as in penis removal) regardless of your chromosomes, I’m happy for you to be called a woman…is this wrong?

You might as well say old men over 75 with dementia are no threat to women either , or short skinny one armed men, or very feminine gay men, or vulnerable men with limited mental capacity. Let’s face it, as soon someone says “OK, we will make an exception for men who have no penis , they can be housed in female prisons.” then you open up the door for other special cases to plead their case, and before you know it the queue will stretch round the block. If you were born a man you go to a male prison, and by the same token if you are born a woman you go to a womens prison.

It is not just about the threat to women, though that is the main criteria, it is also about womens dignity, and privacy too, about how the prison is set up to accommodate and support vulnerable women, many of whom will have had previous experience of abuse from men and who in many cases will be undertaking courses to help them to understand how to avoid further abuse in the future. As soon as you introduce men into the equation, however vulnerable an in need of support they are themselves, then the balance changes. Women in prison are not there to provide support for vulnerable men, who ever they are.

No chance, if you mutilate yourself, that's your own choice. I would not be living with it.

This.

Bloody stupid idea, OP.

How is keeping spaces single sex, including women's prisons demonising trans people?

But placing a man, you've just said you know they are men, in a prison with women not demonising women?

One is hurt feelings the other is removed safety and dignity for female people?

What has made you disregard the needs of female people to protect the feelings of Males?

It's not anti trans to not want men around vulnerable women

Men can never become women. Regardless of what they do. So no a man who has chopped off his penis does not belong in a women's prison

There are lots of different men who are vunerable in male prisons, transwomen should be treated in the same way. The solution to types of men being vunerable in male spaces is not to shove them in women's.

The issue is autogynephilia, many - not all - agp men will have their penis removed however they still have a paraphilia. Just like paedophiles who have had chemical castration continue to offend. I vote for a third space

It is often perceived as having an anti trans stance if you don't give them free reign regardless of whether they are a man wearing a wig or have actually taken steps to have hormonal and surgical interventions. I am merely pointing out the definition of trans is very abstract.

Did you know men commit vile sexual and other violent assaults with more than just their dicks?

And that if a man is in prison for any form of sex-based assault, regardless of what surgery he's had, he is still the same person.

With the same attitude towards women.

And the same physical size and strength.

If the fear is that they are vulnerable to other members of their sex, the answer is not to make women take all the risk of accommodating them.

The answer is special units in men's prisons to protect men who are in danger from other men.

It is not a woman’s job to keep men safe, especially at threat to her own safety. Men belong in men’s prison, never with women. It doesn’t matter what modification they have done to their bodies.

I don't think there are many people who have had everything changed over to look/act like a women's genitals. I guess maybe they're less threatening, but you could say that about someone with a micropenis, or someone who can't get a hard on.
I guess if I was in prison, sharing a cell with someone, I'd be disturbed to think about what kind of weird amalgamation of a women's organs they've wasted their time and money on manifesting. But it would be better than them getting their massive dick and balls out on a regular basis. Only just.

It's not demonising anyone to accept that men and women need to be separated in some circumstances. My husband isn't allowed into female spaces and understands this isn't about demonising him.

You may be upset if your trans friends went into the correct prison for their sex class like any other male person, but you don't get to consent for other women. Women's prisons and other spaces are not sex-specific to make women feel better about how they are viewed, but for hard, real reasons relating to their biology. Your trans friends do not have that biology and therefore do not have those needs; they, like you, just don't want the reality acknowledged even when it matters. For them, it is a want relating to self-image. For women it is a need relating to material reality that they can't identify out of.

I think they should be put in a separate wing in a female prison that is completely detached from where the women reside. That or they clear out a small prison and redistribute any trans people to there. Unfortunately people born male are on average stronger and bigger than women so I don't think it's fair on women in prison (who more often than not have been through violent and sexual abuse at the hands of men) to have to feel even more unsafe then they already do.

If a man has had his penis cut off, and is worried about the danger of being put in a male prison, the best thing he can do is avoid committing any crimes that might lead to a custodial sentence. Safest option.

Reading through the thread I also think I am changing my mind to this. I know third spaces for loos/changing rooms/prisons etc isn't likely (and will more than likely come from women's spaces) but if we want to move past this as a political and social issue we have to start by not participating in the pretence men aren't a threat and these are not men.

@Bex5490 I'll add my voice to those asking you spend a few moments thinking about the women, rather than the men.

If a male prisoner - any male, regardless of identity or surgery - is at risk from other men, that is a men problem. It's for men to solve.

Why is your solution to also put women at risk?

That doesn't solve the problem - it just increases it from a risk affecting 1 man to one affecting 100 or so women.

Women are not human shields.

Why not a separate wing in a male prison?

I was referencing that poster saying ‘friends’ as if to imply they are not and cannot be my friends. It’s reductive - they are humans. I know my stance isn’t popular and I’m not advocating for trans women to be put in male prisons. I’m just saying if my friends were put in a male prison, I’d be upset for them. I’m looking at it on an individual level, and most will object to that. But that is the stance I’ve taken.

Segregate in a male prison.There should be no threat to women in prison by a man who is pretending.

Legally, it has to be a penis for it to be rape.

I do. Maybe you should do some serious genetic research instead of questioning my post.

I'm a feminist. I detest the active political transsexual movement that's impregnating politics against women. It's being politically manipulated to stop women escalating to powerful positions.

There's still a very small percentage of the population which biology and genetics don't fit in. It happens in all animal kingdom, not just humans.

If you can't understand the difference between a political motivated debate and real people, I'm sorry for you.

They aren't to all intents and purposes a woman

Literally nothing about them is woman. Not a single cell in their body is woman.

No matter how a man acts, how he dresses, what he calls himself, what he removes from his body or adds to it he is still wholly a man. Even if he looks like a tall masculine woman, he is still a man. Woman is not something you can make yourself or identify as.

Trans women are a category of men so they should be housed in men's prisons. They don't become women just because they've had their penis removed.

Women don't deserve to be put in
danger or made to feel uncomfortable just to accommodate some men regardless of how they might want to identify.

Jeepers - can you imagine what that would look like!

Serious genetic research will still tell you that all people are either male or female. There are some people with DSD's but they all still have a sex.

No one is born without a sex.

There is no evidence that trans women who have their penises removed are not male.