To think that if a man has had bottom surgery they should be put in a woman’s prison?

[Bex5490]

Genuinely interested in this and not trying to goad just want to understand.

When people talk of the threat of a man in women’s spaces, I assume the danger is because of their penis.

So if that’s gone then should they be categorised as a woman?

I’m kind of of the opinion that if you’re willing to put that much effort in (as in penis removal) regardless of your chromosomes, I’m happy for you to be called a woman…is this wrong?

No. Men who have had their penises removed - for whatever reason - are still men. You wouldn't advocate putting in women's prisons ordinary males who'd lost their penises to cancer or accidents.

Not being able to impregnate/ forcibly impregnate women is a very very low bar for women's safety and dignity.

De-penised males still have male strength and male pattern criminality. Let me remind you of Evie Amati, the Australian post- bottom surgery transwoman who attacked random strangers with an axe because he was butthurt at a lesbian tinder date not finding him attractive.

https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/relationships/family-friends/from-privileged-upbringing-to-triple-attempted-axe-murderer/news-story/336cfecbe0fee4d61eb0c2531dd0e919

And what about the fact that an extraordinarily high rate of female prisoners have been victim of sexual violence and domestic violence, and may be extra traumatised being held captive with men, thus threatening any rehabilitation?

Men just don't need to be with women, full stop, no ifs or buts. It's not women's job to be human shields for vulnerable males. Vulnerable men and transwomen should have their own wings in men's prisons.

I’ve had a hysterectomy and a double mastectomy. Am I now any less a woman just because I have had my sex organs removed by surgery? Which prison would you put me in?

"gender reaffirming surgery" is cosmetic

If a women works out, suffers from PSOS, takes after her father/grandfathers should she be housed in a male prison OP ?

The whole point of going to prison is you lose the right to make decisions & represent yourself so why should people going in be allowed to announce there gender beyond male or female at birth ?

Nope, absolutely not. We must not concede any ground. Hold the line.

This argument only works if you believe that the reason men kill, assault and hurt women in such shockingly large numbers is simply the penis.

Rather than the superior strength, muscle mass and twitch, different skeletal structure and a greater biological propensity towards violence.

Not sure why we are picking some of the most vulnerable and abused women to be guinea pigs for this little social experiment, but I find it horrific and barbaric.

Women aren't "non-men" despite what the Green party has said.

I feel like we've already discussed this at length, sanity and reality is prevailing, getting a bit bored of these attempts at gotchas now.

Some reports suggest this individual has had “bottom surgery”.
Do you really feel it is ok that women should have to share prison space with them?

Are validating this persons feelings more important than the safety of women especially given this individuals reaction when their identity was under threat?

Women are not support humans for any men. The safety, privacy and dignity of women is not optional and must not be disregarded every time a male finds them inconvenient.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-birmingham-39266777

I agree with the majority here - that a third space (for the safety of all vulnerable male prisoners) is the best option, imprisonment within the male estate (with awareness that such prisoners will be vulnerable) the fall back position.

Apologies for use of any incorrect terminology - this isn’t an area I am overly familiar with. However, what about offenders born intersex, with ambiguous genitalia? Are they housed with their genetic sex? Or the ‘best fit’ sex as assigned at birth? (I assume that now, genetic testing would be routine, but are there older adults where a ‘best fit’ approach was taken by medical staff and parents at birth?)

If a man lost his penis in a very unfortunate car accident he is still a man.
If a man has his penis surgically removed at his request he is still a man.

The reasons for women having some spaces (inclusing prison) separate from men haven't changed.

Seems odd to have to say this, but a woman isn't a man without a penis.

I disagree with this. There's only one way to be biologically female, yes. But we don't live in a vacuum. We interact in society and rely on societal and visual clues to know who we are and where we fit. A 'true' transgender person who has fully transitioned and had surgery is one of those rare people who nobody had a problem with until all the self-id, TWAW, 'what are your pronouns', non binary crap started becoming fashionable.

Chances are you've met a transgender person, treated them as a woman and never realised that they weren't. Someone asked what 'living as a woman' means - the only transgender person I know (as far as I'm aware) that has fully transitioned and was born a man is someone I knew for years before she told me that she was trans. I had no idea (not close friends). She presents as a very ordinary family woman living an ordinary mother's life. If, for some reason, she was to do something prison worthy, nobody would have a clue that she was in the 'wrong' prison unless they had her medical records. Putting her in a man's prison would be nuts. I'm very gender critical, don't believe people can literally change sex etc. But calling people who have (to use old school speak) 'had a sex change' by their biological sex is going too far, in my opinion.

A rapist that targets men is a threat to all of the men on there.

And we women should give a fuck about this....why?

This. 99% of men are taller, heavier and stronger than women.

Why would anyone with any care or concern for women and female prisoners think it's reasonable to suggest that a man with major MH issues expressed through the medium of gender identity to the extent of undergoing castration, or with a sexual fetish so intense that he has himself castrated to fulfil his fantasy, should be locked up with women? Why would you think a woman is safe from such a man?

Of course you'd be upset. But that upset doesn't override women's rights and women's safety.

You are applying cognitive dissonance. You know they are men, you know you would be trampling on women's rights by allowing them into a women's prison but want to do it anyway .

Mens feelings do not trump women's rights or women's safety. I do feel very sorry for someone who has considered themselves to be a woman for years and ends up in a man's prison, that is partly the fault of society for indulging in their fantasy. It is not women's responsibility to give up their rights and safety though

Oh, stop it. Enough now, nobody is falling for it anymore.

That's the point of the post?

A rapist who targets men will be a threat to men and transwomen a like. Transwomen are no more vunerable to rape in male prisons than men and therefore do not require spaces in women's prisons to protect then

I'm male. My penis isn't the part of me that's dangerous. My strength, my reach, my power, and my brain are. Chucking some hormones in me, chopping my bollocks off and inverting my penis aren't going to change that. It may stop me raping someone by the legal definition of rape in the UK, but there are a million other ways for a man to assault a woman, sexually or otherwise.

I have never assaulted anyone. And I would never. But the only person who 100% percent knows that to be true is me. So I don't belong in a womans prison, and neither does any other man, whether they have a penis or not.

We shouldn’t, that’s my point. They are no more or less at risk than any other man and therefore they should be in men’s jail.

It really shouldn’t.

Men commit massively more crimes of violence than women, and transwomen offend at the same rate as other men.

Transwomen in prison are more likely to have been convicted of a sexual offence than other male criminals are. So they are even more dangerous to female prisoners than other men are.

But I don’t think that just because someone is technically male (whether stronger or faster etc) they are a threat to women.

Why separate the sexes for anything then?

The majority of violent crime is committed by men, women are more often victims than perpetrators.

Nearly all sexual violence us committed by men, the majority of victims are women.

We do not have single sex spaces because all men are a threat to women, we have single sex spaces because some men are a threat to women and we can't tell those who are a threat from those who aren't just by looking at them. It's called safeguarding. Men in wigs, dresses and make up are not less likely to be a threat to women.

Women are not responsible for protecting vulnerable men from violent men in the prison system. If we followed your argument to it's logical conclusion then the female prison estate would house all vulnerable male prisoners.

Do any other prisoners get to dictate what prison they go to? Why should anyone get to do that? Male is male, females need protection from males because males are bigger, stronger and more prone to violence and sexual offending, and that doesn't change with surgery.

If it's dangerous for post-surgery (or any) TW to be with other men, they could ask for a separate TW-only wing/area. I'd be behind that if there was any evidence that they are more at risk than male prisoners in general.

If it makes them sad not to be seen as women, I don't care. A) it makes a lot more women a lot more sad, and at more risk, to have males shoved in with them, and B) if you don't want to be sad about where you're put in prison, you could maybe not do the crime.

Your not gender critical though are you?

I think there's a big difference between treating someone as a woman in a social context and a legal/political one. If I meet a trangender person I would respect that they considered themselves a transwoman, but that doesn't mean I believe they are legally a woman or belong in women's spaces.

Its that important distinction between transwoman and woman. Looking like a woman doesn't make it so. That person is still a man

Should a tall, muscular,bearded transman be allowed to use female changing rooms? Because they will be a lot stronger than the average female. Biological females are capable of violence. Would said transman really be less threatening than a female presenting penis-less transwoman?

It’s a unresolvable tension in my thinking but ultimately my personal feelings for them as individuals would override what is right for women as a class. That is how I feel

@Runnieknows

You can make that argument about anything. You can wish that they escape jail for violent crimes they commit, because you care more about your chums than their victims, too, it's the same thing.

Hayley Cropper style transwomen (the old-school transsexuals) are an exceptionally small proportion of the modern community of people that describe themselves as Trans. When the GRA was debated in Parliament, it was made clear that it was intended to provide some dignity to those small numbers of transsexual individuals who were also gay and unable to marry their partner of choice as that would have involved two biological men, and same sex marriage was deemed to be unacceptable to the British public at the time. Straight transsexual men would still have been able to marry a woman, even if presenting as two women, as biologically it would be a man and woman marrying.

Rapid Onset Prison Gender Dysphoria is a thing. It also appears to resolve on discharge from prison. Funny that.

People with a DSD are genetically male or female. If genetically male they will have been through male puberty with the physical strength and development of height and muscle that that entails. So they go to a male prison.