To think that if a man has had bottom surgery they should be put in a woman’s prison?

[Bex5490]

Genuinely interested in this and not trying to goad just want to understand.

When people talk of the threat of a man in women’s spaces, I assume the danger is because of their penis.

So if that’s gone then should they be categorised as a woman?

I’m kind of of the opinion that if you’re willing to put that much effort in (as in penis removal) regardless of your chromosomes, I’m happy for you to be called a woman…is this wrong?

Yes, male people who claim to be women exist. No, I don't believe that they are women, or have any meaningful claim to be. Hope that helps.

We all know that trans people exist and will continue to exist. If they didn't, nobody would care what spaces they are using or what sporting categories they are competing in. It's not hate to not believe that they have become the opposite sex.

Perhaps you can link up the specific cultures where homosexual people were not forced to be othered to create a 'third gender', or where female people could live and do exactly how they wanted without resorting to claiming to be male, and we can see exactly where people with transgender identities lived in history.

You seem to have the knowledge, why not share it freely.

Would you put a man who had had medical trauma to his Penis is a women's prison?

Not putting the feelings of a subset of men first is not transphobia, Lostcat.

I don't hate these males. I just know that they are not women.

I know that women exist as a sex class and that there are times when women need spaces free from all males, including trans women.

You should stop looking at the past through 21st century eyes. The past was a different country, they did things differently there.

No, and I believe we have been over this before, it is only your personal definition of transphobia.

Why not report the post and let MNHQ decide?

I do not hate people, but I do utterly abhor the ideology that says it is OK for male born and male bodied individuals to take women’s places in sports, scholarships, business awards, to invade women’s intimate spaces; to say that a woman who has been raped and who does not want male bodied individuals, however they identify, to be in their rape crisis treatment, should be re-educated; to say that women must be defined as a sub group of their own sex class (‘cis’woman). I abhor the ideology that says that lesbians - biological women attracted to other biological women - should accept penetrative sex from an individual who says they are a woman and a lesbian, despite being biologically male. Where lesbian women cannot have separate spaces/meetings without being forced to allow men in, simply because they have stated they ‘are’ a woman and a lesbian.

I abhor an ideology that tells vulnerable young people that they can actually change their biological sex (which is impossible), that puberty blockers are entirely safe, when their use on healthy young people has not been properly tested, and when it is known that Lupron causes brittle bones and stunts intellectual development in the teenage brain.

I abhor an ideology that is dragging us back to the rigid gender stereotypes of yesteryear. Women have fought long and hard to prove that a biological woman does not have to perform femininity or conform to gender stereotypes - they can wear trousers, have short hair, no make up, get their hands dirty in STEM careers, love sports - and none of this defines them as women. Now we are told that a young girl who wants to play with Lego, or build treehouses, or play rugby cannot simply be a girl who likes these things, she must be trans. And a boy cannot like pink or skirts or make up, or want a caring career - he must be a girl born in the wrong body. And this ideology seeks to push children into a life of reliance on medicine and surgery, infertile and maybe with no ability to feel sexual fulfilment/pleasure.

None of it is. You can't just shreik transphobic at everything you don't like.

Well you can if you want but you look like a lunatic 🤷‍♀️

All I can do is keep calling transphobia , transphobia. It’s very important to do so .

It's also made up.

It couldn't be less important. But if it keeps you occupied, it's a nice little busywork hobby for you.

You can't just shreik transphobic at everything you don't like

lol I certainly don’t do that.

I only call transphobia, transphobia. It is important to do so.

No, all you can do is keep calling opinions you don't like 'transphobic' in an attempt to discredit the posts.

You can have all the personally constructed meanings for words in the world. But you just saying something is transphobic does not make it so.

You don’t think it’s important to call transphobia, transphobia?

Transphobia is made up?

You've already shown us that you call lots of things that clearly aren't transphobic transphobic, so you're really not very good at it are you?
Maybe take up trainspotting instead?

Your version of it certainly is.

What do you mean by trans people existing though Lostcat?

Because it seems to me this whole “you’re deniying my existence!” claim is made disingenuously. If you think trans people are people who really have changed sex, or are in some metaphysical way the opposite sex to their sexed body- well no such people don’t exist. There’s absolutely no evidence for this happening, ever. But saying that, and the fact that it’s true, clearly doesn’t make all people who identify as trans disappear in a puff of smoke.

If trans people are people who don’t like being the sex they are, want to be the opposite sex and try to “live as” the opposite sex by acting out stereotypes and/or getting surgery (neither of which make them the opposite sex at all or give them any idea of what having the opposite sex’s body is actually like, as that’s impossible), well yes of course they exist. No one is denying that at all and if they would be realistic about what sex they are and respect other people’s sex based rights we could all co-exist.

I don’t have much time for men who want to appropriate my actual real (/“lived”) experience as a woman, or for women who want to deny being women, but I’d defend their rights to safety and fair treatment. I don’t want them all exterminated, as GC feminists are always being ridiculously accused of. I just want life and law to reflect reality so that I can be safe from persecution for understanding biology and evidence, and we don’t have laws and policies that actively endanger women and children.

If you really think GC arguments “deny trans people exist” that must mean you think trans people really are the opposite sex to their actual sex. Is that right? Because that’s what we’re denying. And do you really think trans people actually only exist as this kind of reality-upending, magical phenomenon?

Because it seems to me this whole “you’re deniying my existence!” claim is made disingenuously.

It absolutely is.

I never understood the "you're denying my existence" bullshit. No, we can see you, you exist. Nobody ever claimed otherwise.
We're just correctly denying you're a woman given that you are obviously a man 🤷‍♀️

Oh dear.

So rather than come up with a good reason that women should allow a subset of males to appropriate our sex based rights you are resorting to calling us bigots?

You can do better than that @Lostcat , surely?

You can call me every name under the sun, I still know that I am right to try to protect women as a sex class and to protect children from harm.

I think it's you who has the bigoted beliefs. You don't think women exist other than in the way that men define us and includes men on their say so? That's fairly out there isn't it? Women have subjugated by men through the ages. Your so called trans rights is taking us right back to that form of oppression. There can be no escape from our oppressors if we can't define ourselves separately from them.

Nobody is forcing lesbians to have sex with trans women.

It is important to a lot of people. Your opinion isn't the only one that matters or a universal truth. It is important to call out discrimination in society, regardless of whether the people who are not affected by it care or not.

Lol. They're trying to, and making a very big fuss when they won't.

Or are all these lesbians lying.....
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-57853385