To think that if a man has had bottom surgery they should be put in a woman’s prison?

[Bex5490]

Genuinely interested in this and not trying to goad just want to understand.

When people talk of the threat of a man in women’s spaces, I assume the danger is because of their penis.

So if that’s gone then should they be categorised as a woman?

I’m kind of of the opinion that if you’re willing to put that much effort in (as in penis removal) regardless of your chromosomes, I’m happy for you to be called a woman…is this wrong?

This is deliberate misrepresentation of the statistics.

As explained well here https://medium.com/@commiebisexual/are-trans-women-rapists-6400df2bed7a

We take the same statistics as above, but instead of comparing them with inmates, we compare them with the total population:

76 sex offenders out of 131000 trans women = 0.058%
125 sex offenders out of 33665000 women= 0.00037%
13234 sex offenders out of 33665000 men= 0.039%

This paints a radically different picture. Trans women seem to be a group susceptible to committing rapes, but nearly not 3.5 times more than cis men do, as the previous data led us to believe.

This data still obscures that 74 out of the 76 trans women sex offenders were legally male. What this means is that these women were imprisoned early in their transition. In other words, they have spent much more time presenting as men than women. I have no data to back up this claim — which is why it would be interesting to investigate this with a study — but it seems that very few rapists were trans women at the time of their crime. Instead, it seems, a trans-woman-to-be is as likely to be a rapist as any cis man.

Why do I defend this hypothesis? The reasons are four-fold:

Isla Bryson herself raped two women before her transition and none after.
Trans women are three times more likely than cis women to be victims of rape in their lifetime (47% against 17%). To put this number into perspective, per convicted trans woman rapist, 810 trans women have been raped. The looming fear over trans people's heads that they may, one day or another, be raped makes them much more conscious of women's issues and supportive of feminism and their fight against rape culture. I do not know any trans woman opposed to even the most radical branches of the fight against the rape of cis women.
Trans women have generally overcome patriarchy once they decide to transition. Transitioning is so subversive that to begin such an enterprise, one has to dissect maleness and reject it.
Trans women are depicted as being rapists, hence, we are more likely to believe a victim of sexual violence if she denounces a trans woman. This is similar to what happens to Black men in the US. This is namely the problem of the discrepancy between the perpetrators and those convicted. You are more likely to be convicted if you are poor or generally the victim of stigma. So, rich white straight rapists can afford not to fear the law, whereas minorities cannot.

Additionally tansgender individuals are more likely than any other group, including women, to be the victims of violent crime and are often targets of hate crime. They are vulnerable and deserve protection which would be afforded by a trans wing in prison but certainly wouldn't be afforded by just throwing them in a mens prison to appease the people continually repeating a trans woman is a man. End of.
https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/press/ncvs-trans-press-release/

Trans people are statistically proven to be more vulnerable and are not inherent predators. The narrative that they are is unpleasant.

Who are you addressing this to @Cheesytoastie - what specific comment is it a response to?

I saw this and I was wondering if true, which you say it isn't, is it chicken and egg.

The brain make new networks and neural pathways all the time. So if you have certain feelz, does your brain change because of the feelz - not the other way round.

No they are still female just females who have damaged their bodies with extreme medical modifications.

The fact is we talk about chromosomes because they are what decides if you are male or female. Your dna is in every cell in your body it doesn't change ever, our entire body is geared towards either the production of large immotile gametes or small motile gametes, there's no changing that, pumping your body full of artificial cross sex hormones and having sterilising surgery that destroys your natural genitals thus leaving you unable to have sex makes no difference to your biological sex. No one has ever stopped being the sex that they were born due to it they don't magically become some 3rd sex.
Oh and no one can get male genitals all they can get is a flesh tube that rarely does anything other than cause serious health issues and plastic testicle shaped implants. I would suggest that you look at some of the results of these sorts of surgeries but the images are really rather horrific and I'm not just talking about the ones taken immediately after surgery, instead I will suggest that you listen to Scott newgent (sp) talk about her surgeries it's eye opening

Additionally tansgender individuals are more likely than any other group, including women, to be the victims of violent crime and are often targets of hate crime. They are vulnerable and deserve protection which would be afforded by a trans wing in prison but certainly wouldn't be afforded by just throwing them in a mens prison to appease the people continually repeating a trans woman is a man. End of.
https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/press/ncvs-trans-press-release/

Unreliable US statistics based on self reported convenience sample.

Female sex protected spaces are not repositories for males, any of them.

Also, very happy for male trans people to have a trans wing in the male estate. It's not us you need to convince, Cheesy.

I will have a listen. I appreciate you offering an audio option over the visual 😂

Bex, it would be a great progress if third spaces was considered acceptable as an alternative. Feminists have been suggesting this for decades now as far as I know. Certainly since the initial discussions for the Acts passed in 2010 and prior.

We do keep hearing of poster's friends such as Runnie's but they are not involved and don't wish to be. Now there are several thoughts around this, but the reality is that they are just not involved.

Aren't they exactly the same as a trans identity? Its a belief, not a state of being.

And beliefs can and do change. There was a thread on here recently about how people generally get more conservative as they get older. People change their religion.

This data still obscures that 74 out of the 76 trans women sex offenders were legally male. What this means is that these women were imprisoned early in their transition.

It doesn't, it means that these "women" (sic) don't have a Gender Recognition Certificate. It has zero to do with anything else.

Here is data from the MoJ

Here is an FOI request from 30 April 2024

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/population_of_transgender_offend/response/2641337/attach/html/7/FOI%20240322022%20Annex%20A.xlsx.html
Up to the 31st March 2023, the MoJ stated that of the 88 male transgender prisoners with one or more sexual offences.

The breakdown was

48 rapes,
0 attempted rapes,
10 Sexual assault or attempted sexual assault,
13 causing or inciting a child under 16 to engage in sexual activity,
0 indecent assault or gross indecency
6 sexual activity with a child under 16
0 other

77 listed here.... BUT there is a total of 88 in the total so there is 11 crimes not noted.

Possessing or making indecent photographs or pseudo photographs of child has not been recorded in this FOI.

However, there is are further discrepancies in the data of the following when you look at TOTAL NUMBER OF TRANSGENDER PRISONERS SENTENCED FOR A PRINCIPAL SEXUAL OFFENCE.

1 causing or inciting a child under 16 to engage in sexual activity
3 rapes
2 sexual activity with a child under 16
3 Sexual assault or attempted sexual assault,

This equals 9 additional... however the sum for TOTAL NUMBER OF TRANSGENDER PRISONERS SENTENCED FOR A PRINCIPAL SEXUAL OFFENCE is 99. Therefore 2 more sex crimes have been hidden from this data.
There were 203 males who were declared as transgender in the prison at the time. There were 24 NB who were not segregated into male and female. What is key here, is that THIS IS NON-GRC HOLDERS. And we all know that males holding GRCs have increased and they are excluded from this data. NO female people with transgender identities were sentenced to a principal sexual offence. There were 41 female people with transgender identities in UK prisons at that time.

As a comparison, I have stats that say as of April 2019 that the general male MoJ data for male sex offenders was just 16.8% of the male prison population. And there were 3.3% of female people in UK prisons were sex offenders.
I will leave you to do your own sums. But... even using the figure of 88/203 is 43.3%. (And that doesn't include making or possessing indecent photographs of a child remember.)

By the way this exercise was done in 2021. And I checked this data myself from the data source and it was correct at the time. So, it will give some back ground to the above.

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/breakdown_of_offences_committed
The ones that say that in the March/April 2021 data collection period, the MoJ stated that of the 97 transgender prisoners with one or more sexual offences.

The breakdown was

40 rapes,
8 attempted rapes,
31 possessing or making indecent photographs or pseudo photographs of child,
32 Sexual assault or attempted sexual assault,
20 causing or inciting a child under 16 to engage in sexual activity,
10 indecent assault or gross indecency
9 sexual activity with a child under 16
27 other

The 97 sex offender transgender prisons collected 177 sentences between them.

And that according to that FOI 197 prisoners are transgender.

I can also provide 2019 figures that show pretty much the same kind of disproportion. It always pays to look further at what data is presented.

"Additionally tansgender individuals are more likely than any other group, including women, to be the victims of violent crime and are often targets of hate crime."

more likely than which other group? Female people? You mean the female people who do not have adequate laws protecting their supposedly 'protected characteristic'?

And can you please define what constitutes a hate crime against a transgender individual? Because last time I looked, that included misgendering and even seeing stickers that they disagreed with.

I agree that it’s a belief not a fact. But so are lots of things…

So are months. Yes a year is how long it takes the earth to rotate the sun, but why not split it into 10 months not 12?

It is our (correct) belief that people shouldn’t have sex with 12 year olds. Biologically speaking some are ready to reproduce but that isn’t how we have chosen to structure society.

We have created a world that has truths but we have organised and invented systems around those truths.

"More likely that any other group" is one hell of a bold, and false claim. Based on what exactly?

I agree that it’s a belief not a fact. But so are lots of things…

The fact that the earth revolves around the sun and not the other way round is a fact though, and so is the existence of biological sex.

Sorry meant to quote @Bex5490

I’m not saying that biological sex isn’t a truth. And one that cannot change. I’m saying that trans people speak of their gender identity. I don’t feel like I have a gender identity but I imagine that for them it exists in the same way that months or friendship or racism or any other abstract noun exists.

Fun Twitter thread for you, OP and others. Make sure you're logged in and can read the WHOLE thread.

https://x.com/FondOfBeetles/status/1133120326844506112?t=mgNgG98osbTdioqehrzirg&s=19

I’m saying that trans people speak of their gender identity. I don’t feel like I have a gender identity but I imagine that for them it exists in the same way that months or friendship or racism or any other abstract noun exists.

What does it exist as? What is a woman?

Ok but you want to invent a system based on an UNTRUTH.

There's a scary number of flat earth believers out there, we don't change anything to accommodate those beliefs, because we know them to be untrue. So why would we accommodate the equally demonstrably false belief that men can be women?

"Trans people are statistically proven to be more vulnerable and are not inherent predators".

Again, this is not quite an accurate reflection of the data that is officially collected.

The only accurate point that you can probably make is that male people with a transgender identity show no less a propensity to commit sex related crimes than any other male person in the UK generally.

I have not looked into the propensity to commit sex related crimes for female people with transgender identities.

The statement about male people has also been supported by a study from Sweden. That there was no conclusive decrease in the propensity to commit what can be considered male pattern crimes (because in sex crimes, the perpetrators are consistently around the world 98-99% male people).

What is absolutely clear is that in the UK the sub group of male people with transgender identities do not show the same or lower risk as the general female UK population. Yet, for robust safeguarding, this particular point matters very much.

Thanks…

You have officially changed my twitter algorithm to gender critical posts about fish!

But I do get the point.

I think if the only option is a third space then a lot of men will stop identifying as trans because there will no longer be any point to it. Leaving a lot of permanently damaged young people in their wake.

Someone who "just wants to live in peace" isn't going to go round committing serious crimes and end up in jail, so I don't think they need to be taken into consideration as far as prisons are concerned.

If you're worried that prison won't be a sufficiently gender affirming space for your liking, don't commit crimes. Simple as that.

But why should people with this philosophical belief, which is all that being transgender is according to their very own academics, receive this particular special treatment?

There are many other groups who are vulnerable and have philosophical beliefs about themselves, do they get the same special treatment such as a prison section just for their needs?