To think that if a man has had bottom surgery they should be put in a woman’s prison?

[Bex5490]

Genuinely interested in this and not trying to goad just want to understand.

When people talk of the threat of a man in women’s spaces, I assume the danger is because of their penis.

So if that’s gone then should they be categorised as a woman?

I’m kind of of the opinion that if you’re willing to put that much effort in (as in penis removal) regardless of your chromosomes, I’m happy for you to be called a woman…is this wrong?

Transwomen have no need to fear any other males
Nor are they less of a risk to women (see picture below)
Transwomen are the safest group in the UK, in Scotland no Transwomen has ever been murdered by anyone (male, female or trans) no other groups can say that they have a statistically more chance of being murdered

Nobody wants transpeople treated badly

I think lots of people want trans people to be treated badly, and I’m not talking about what prison they go to

I guess that’s the thing with life. I wouldn’t be friends with a Reform voter or someone who didn’t like animals. I’m sure in those groups that are good people who have their reasons but I’d dismiss them out of hand and allow the stereotype to win.

We're all different. I wouldn't be friends with an animal abuser but someone who just thinks animals are a bit meh, fine.

Like pp I couldn't be friends with someone of the male sex who saw women as a set of sexist stereotypes they could put on if they felt different to what they imagined a man should be (another set of sexist stereotypes). I'm a woman, and I find the whole idea offensive. With anything else it would be considered appropriation. I don't have the belief that their "identity" is innate that genderists do.

I think if you've committed a serious crime we don't need to be respectful of your gender identity.

A man who has had his penis removed can assault a woman just as easily as a man who hasn't had his penis removed.

But what I don’t understand is that there are several (biological) components that make someone a woman or man. Like a man has male genitalia, higher testosterone, xy chromosomes etc.

The genitalia and testosterone are due to the chromosome combination, not the other way around.

No, there's no middle. There's nothing in-between. There are men, and there are women. A man without a penis, or with low testosterone etc is a man. A woman with high testosterone or no uterus still a woman.

Calling a transwoman a man is not incorrect. It's a fact, that never changes. If they are at risk from other men, the answer is not to ameliorate that risk by increasing risk to women. Which is what your suggestion does.

Give them their own spaces, fine. Don't give them ours though. Stop taking from women to give to men.

I couldn't agree more and it's refreshing to see someone seeing the nuance in the situation and approaching it with a bit of humanity instead of the no, a trans woman is a man. End of. approach most posters here repeat advice nauseum.

I think lots of people want trans people to be treated badly, and I’m not talking about what prison they go to

That's true and it's deplorable and we have protections in law intended to tackle this. Lots of people want lots of other people to be treated badly, across all of politics and life, it's not exclusive to this group. Misogyny is very much still a thing, and not exclusive to knuckle dragging types.

I couldn't agree more and it's refreshing to see someone seeing the nuance in the situation

You couldn't agree more with this misunderstanding of human biology?

Also worth noting, people who want others treated badly are almost exclusively male people.

And when I'm referring to "treated badly" I'm not referring to people correctly acknowledging their sex.

If a woman increases their testosterone and gets male genitalia, then surely they are somewhere in the middle. Not a real biological male but not properly female anymore.

No woman 'gets male genitalia' though. Thats a complete misunderstanding of how these procedures work. They are females with artificially high testosterone and surgical changes to their female genitalia.

If a woman increases their testosterone and gets male genitalia, then surely they are somewhere in the middle.

No, and not just because nobody actually changes genitalia, they just have surgery so their existing sexed genitalia more closely resemble the opposite sex genitalia. But the sex of the genitalia have not changed. That's not possible.

Women are adult humans of the reproductive sex class capable of producing large gametes. That covers infertile women, butch women, postmenopausal women (only women experience menopause), women without children, the lot. You may have a variation or condition or be of an age where you do not produce those gametes but if your body is in the reproductive class that's capable of it, you're you're a woman. Otherwise you are male, the reproductive sex class capable of producing small gametes.

They deserve safe spaces too as trans people.

Of course, no question. And the obvious solution would be additional third spaces. This has been constantly rejected as a solution though, because as I said yesterday, it's not enough to have a safe space. It has to be the women's spaces.

Because the primary purpose isn't a safe space. It's validation as a women, everywhere, all the time. No spaces that exclude natal males can be allowed. Nobody can create a space that deviates from this religion. Women's safe spaces must cease to be women's safe spaces and become validation spaces for men. There cannot be any spaces that exclude all natal males.
That do not affirm this one particular belief.

TRAs sometimes say there's a special place in hell for terfs. The response is that if that's true, the TRAs will start demanding access to it...

"gets male genitalia"

But they don't get male genitalia. They get a simulation of male genitalia.

We know that people have had extreme body modifications because they believe they are a reptile. Are they a reptile? Or are they only ever a human who has had extreme body modifications and that split tongue is not a snake's tongue but a human tongue that is split to replicate it.

If a male person has a uterus from a female person implanted in their body. Is that a working uterus with all that male person's body connected to it and making it work. Or will it always be a body part from a female human that has none of the connectivity with the rest of the body to enable it fulfil its purpose?

Consider a penis cut out and inverted and tucked into a created body cavity in the pelvis, do you actually consider this a 'vagina'? Because it most certainly is not. It is a penis, or a piece of the bowel or another body part, that has been created into what is only ever a place where someone can insert an object, with none of the other properties or roles of a vagina. That is not what a vagina is.

That is a simulation of a vagina. It is not replacing a vagina, and it is not transplanting a vagina into a body that was formed around having a vagina.

So, why should a simulation of a vagina in a body that is not genetically created for a simulated vagina be considered a legitimate 'biological' element in the categorisation of a person's sex?

"But I think to just call trans women (who have changed themselves physically) men, isn’t right either as they are also at risk of being hurt by men who have not changed their male components."

But this point is irrelevant. Just because they are at risk of being hurt by men doesn't mean they are not 'men'. A male person who does not identify as being trans can be just as at risk, but that doesn't mean they are not 'men'.

This point designates any male person at risk of being hurt by men who have not changed their male components as being what? women? not male? not men?

Humanity needs to be based on truth. No genuine humanity can be achieved if the basis is pretending transwomen are anything but men.

There's no nuance, and we will repeat the basic fact that a transwoman is a man until you understand it.

I have trouble believing you don't understand it really, I think when you look at a TW you instinctively know they are a man, your mind categorises them into the box "man". It's instinctive. I think you have to work hard to make yourself try to believe they're not a man.

Because the primary purpose isn't a safe space. It's validation as a women, everywhere, all the time. No spaces that exclude natal males can be allowed. Nobody can create a space that deviates from this religion. Women's safe spaces must cease to be women's safe spaces and become validation spaces for men. There cannot be any spaces that exclude all natal males.
That do not affirm this one particular belief.

Until people grasp this, they don't understand this issue.

I hope Wes reads the threats he is now receiving online and finally understands why real woman, who have been receiving these threats for a while, don't want these violent nut jobs in our private spaces. And before the knee jerk responses come in, I don't believe all transgender people are violent nut jobs, but I do believe that people threating to harm, kill and rape people for trying to protect children and voice their own safety concerns are the literal definition of insane and terrifying.

Woman is not a catch all category for males who are in some way different to other males.

I think you have to work hard to make yourself try to believe they're not a man.

That's the heavy burden of cognitive dissonance and why some people get so very angry when other people speak plainly.

Careful Keating, remember anyone who wants to understand accurately what is factual about a situation vs falsehoods or misconceptions is 'evangelistic' in an ideology called 'The Truth'.

Exactly

Coming back to this and the use of the word 'biological'. The only thing 'biological' about the changes you speak of is that they are made from 'biological' matter. They have not changed the sex of the person. People can have whatever body mods they want these days, so it seems. However, the changes are only ever cosmetic.

If that body part was removed again, if the body could be put back to what was there before, the body would continue to work as the sex that person is. Because it is coded into that person's cellular coding.

That is why people talk about chromosomes. But chromosomes are not quite the full story as many people know. It is more accurate to discuss the reproductive role that a person's body has been formed around. ie. gamete production. Even if those gametes have never been produced, are being produced, aren't being produced or will never be produced. This categorisation never changes because it cannot and no human body has successfully produced both sperm and ova.

So do you think that with the tide seeming to turn trans people will be more likely to accept this third space option?

Is it possible that those seeking constant validation and not willing to compromise with the third space option are just the loudest or is this the general consensus among the trans community?

Surely some like @Runnieknows’s friend just want to live in peace.

I don’t see any other option than a third space. Why don’t the government just enforce it and save everyone the agro… trans people have to use gender neutral spaces (toilets/ prison wings changing rooms etc.)

And we can’t all get back to worrying about the fact that one of us is murdered by our partners or ex every 4 days…

Is it possible that those seeking constant validation and not willing to compromise with the third space option are just the loudest or is this the general consensus among the trans community?

I think the latter, but if you think third spaces would work, go for it. I wish you well in your activism.