To think that if a man has had bottom surgery they should be put in a woman’s prison?

[Bex5490]

Genuinely interested in this and not trying to goad just want to understand.

When people talk of the threat of a man in women’s spaces, I assume the danger is because of their penis.

So if that’s gone then should they be categorised as a woman?

I’m kind of of the opinion that if you’re willing to put that much effort in (as in penis removal) regardless of your chromosomes, I’m happy for you to be called a woman…is this wrong?

It definitely is not the same thing. DNA, bone and muscle mass etc is different. Men are men, women are women. As iv stated earlier if a man wants to be called a woman, not a problem I will call him whatever he wants to be called. Doesn’t mean it’s true though. If I wake up and stick a cone to my head and decide I am a unicorn are you compelled to believe I am one?

The frothing and tantrums (and violent threats) in reaction to efforts to make sure care for trans-identifying minors is evidence based are a massive giveaway. “We don’t want children to be protected from potential harm or only given medication that has been properly safety checked! Trans-hating bigots!”

if they don’t want evidence to be the basis of medical care, which it is with most medical treatment, by law, what are their motivations then? Clearly sacrificing health, including children’s health for the rest of their lives, at the altar of a belief system with no evidence base at all and no internal logic, is what they want. That’s a clear indication of a harmful ideology verging on a cult-like system that threatens and excludes non-believers.

And hats off to Wes Streeting for looking this clear in the eye. It looks like he has grasped the issues which is more than can be said for most politicians, and has the courage to face down ideology with actual evidence and reason.

I agree this is fact but to Lostcat’s point about discrimination and dismissal, a poster earlier confirmed to me she doesn’t have any trans friends as she wouldn’t be friends with “deceptive men”. Now, I think the fact I have 2 is highly unusual, and I met them in circumstances that have no connection to them being trans, it’s pure coincidence. They are both fabulous people. Imagine how someone who is kind, loving, respectful would feel if they were dismissed in this way

There's also "transmaxxing" which fully springs from incel/MRA attitudes to women and girls:

https://www.channel4.com/programmes/life-uncovered/on-demand/75986-005

Sammy is a 'transmaxxer', transitioning from a man to a woman because they believe the benefits of being a woman are 'better'.

They are men pretending to be women. That is the height of deception. The entire notion of being a transwomen is incompatible with being otherwise respectful to women.

And I personally view these men as being just as dangerous, if not more so, than the ones who have not pursued surgery. Many of them are autogynephiles. Any man who would go to the extremes of body modification to satisfy his paraphilia is not "vulnerable". Many trans people are open about the fact they know that they are not really the gender they claim to be, that they're just happier living that way. What does that say about the ones then who are adamant the opposite is true, which trans people are we to believe?

A man who is aroused at the thought of himself as a woman, and has surgeries to make that a reality has not earned any stripes that qualify him as a woman. What he's doing is living out his fetish.

There are also quite a lot of instances on those trans forums of trans-identifying males talking about how jealous and resentful they are of women who get to be naturally feminine/female and in some case, about the violent rage they feel towards them, even when they accept the woman is a nice person/blameless. So much of this phenomenon is about male hatred of women and wanting to take over the one thing they can’t ever have or be, and anger about not being able to. That’s not how actual women think. That’s male aggression and anger, no matter how feminine a male might look that is just part of why males shouldn’t be in female spaces, at all, any males.

I have sympathy for people with genuine gender dysphoria. Just as I have sympathy with anyone suffering from a mental disorder.
But, like with any other mental disorder, I do not believe that the rest of us should make allowances that directly harm us to manage someone else’s mental condition.

And we can all seem to grasp the idea that we don’t have to affirm impossible delusions in other situations. No one thinks it’s “unkind” to inform a person with anorexia that they are in fact underweight, or a person with schizophrenia that they are not being followed, and try to get them help to be free of their delusions rather than encouraging them. And this used to be more the case with transitioning as well - as well as a waiting period and psychotherapy, it was ensured that people understood they weren’t actually going to change sex.

This. It really is clear, when you read those posts. They aren't women.

I would worry that they didn't consider me to be a friend but to be an accessory to affirm their gender. You can't have girlie ladies' lunches without any women present.

That's the paradox of tolerance isn't it. If we want a tolerant society intolerance cannot be tolerated.

I stated that the BBC used the wrong term. Which is correct. What more do you want said about the matter?

While I can see your point, them claiming to be women in anyway though does contain an element of deception even if it them deceiving themselves that they are just a special type of woman.

I am sure they are fabulous. Yet, what they have claimed for themselves even if it is just linguistically is false. Stripping away all the emotion in your situation and looking at it without that emotional connection, it is dismissive towards female people to have ever claimed to be a 'woman'. Of course, I also understand that at the time they would have received medical advice and those clinicians would have affirmed that they are 'women' and after treatment could use that category label for themselves.

So whether they are fabulous and caring or not, I don't believe the blunt description of there being deception involved can be dismissed. In saying that, people live with dissonance all the time, just as you have already pointed out in your own case. So, yes, they are deceptive in this way, but that might be the only way they are deceptive, if you know what I mean. And they chose that because it made their live less painful at the time. You might though find that if you put the question to them, not that I expect you would, that they may well acknowledge this 'deception' because they seem to understand it in their actions. I am quite sure that they have thought a great deal about it over the time.

Do you know any personally? Not know of, but genuinely know and interact with?

No one in their right mind wants a society where everything humans are or are capable of should be tolerated.

Tolerance absolutely needs to have limits for the good of society.

I agree, but for someone to not want to be friends with an otherwise good person because they’re deceiving themselves over their sex? That’s unpleasant. But, their loss

We've already covered this. I don't know any personally, because I don't trust deceptive men. I don't want to know any. I don't spend time with liars who wish to erode my rights in favour of their own whims.

I don’t worry about that at all. But then I know these people and you don’t.

And none of my friends of either sex would enjoy a “girlies” lunch

I guess that’s the thing with life. I wouldn’t be friends with a Reform voter or someone who didn’t like animals. I’m sure in those groups that are good people who have their reasons but I’d dismiss them out of hand and allow the stereotype to win.

We all have our boundaries though. And what you consider unpleasant, others consider necessary.

It is like the discussion about 'respect'. Some people pride themselves on respecting people's pronouns and calling someone a woman. That is fine, that is their decision. However, to then state that someone who doesn't is disrespectful is inaccurate and only true from that person's own belief. Because the people who refuse to use pronouns and agree that someone is woman when they are not, may be doing so because they personally feel disrespected that they need to support what they view as a falsehood. Others may feel that it is not respectful to women to use pronouns that established language uses to describe female people.

So, yes. It is their decision and you have judged them unpleasant for rejecting something (ie. that deception) that you have accepted in your friends. I have explained it very poorly, but I hope that you can see the inconsistency and lack of symmetry in your point. And of course, that inconsistency is because you have an emotional connection and care for your friends as you should, but it is there and I think you have acknowledged it.

Political leanings and opinions are not remotely the same as a trans identity though are they?
And you do realise that the whole trans things relies upon stereotypes?

But what I don’t understand is that there are several (biological) components that make someone a woman or man. Like a man has male genitalia, higher testosterone, xy chromosomes etc.

If a woman increases their testosterone and gets male genitalia, then surely they are somewhere in the middle. Not a real biological male but not properly female anymore.

Somewhere in the middle (ie: trans).

Why is it that of all the biological components that make someone the sex they are, everyone only uses the chromosomes? Is this because it is the one component that cannot be changed?

I don’t think you can change your sex from one to the other. But I think to just call trans women (who have changed themselves physically) men, isn’t right either as they are also at risk of being hurt by men who have not changed their male components.

They deserve safe spaces too as trans people.

The world is a ridiculously nuts place and maybe the whole idea of being able to change sex should have been nipped in the bud years ago but we can’t go back in time. The reality is we have people in our society that are trans and should be treated with dignity. Given their own spaces and not ridiculed.

A man has high testosterone and male genitalia because he has XY chromosomes. There are not multiple components to maleness - there is one.
A woman taking male hormones is a woman taking male hormones. There is no middle. And one cannot "get" male or female genitalia, that remains impossible.

But I agree that having this opinion is not disrespectful. Ultimately on either side of this debate it seems like everyone truly believes they are standing up for a vulnerable demographic of people. I don’t think really anyone is passionate about this for the wrong reasons regardless of your stance.