To think that if a man has had bottom surgery they should be put in a woman’s prison?

[Bex5490]

Genuinely interested in this and not trying to goad just want to understand.

When people talk of the threat of a man in women’s spaces, I assume the danger is because of their penis.

So if that’s gone then should they be categorised as a woman?

I’m kind of of the opinion that if you’re willing to put that much effort in (as in penis removal) regardless of your chromosomes, I’m happy for you to be called a woman…is this wrong?

This.

I had no problem with politeness in language until this happened.

We don't have words and we still have to think of the men's feelings and prioritise those?

If a subset of men and their activists hadn't worked relentlessly to destroy women's single sex spaces and sports then maybe I'd be a bit politer. But no, that trust is destroyed. Being polite was never enough it was about unreasonable demands. And now we have a legal fight over the meaning of woman in the Equality Act. If that doesn't mean females (born) then women have no laws to protect us from discrimination because we have to include some male people in that definition.

Thank goodness as a society we are starting to be able to say no to these males. Let's hope the Supreme Court agrees.

We aren’t, but feel free to post any evidence, these ‘discoveries’, that back up your opinion that the reality of sex isn’t simple.

FYI no one has said there’s no such thing as trans.

From the studies and general discussion articles from Neuro specialists I have read, Codling, there is nothing showing strong and robust and repeatable conclusions.

What is known is that hormones cause differences in brains, including taking specific exogenous hormones.

Male brains and female brains have differences due to configuration restrictions from skull shape and size. And there are further genetic differences such as female brains have fibres that are more delicate making female people more susceptible to brain injuries.

And having specific interests creates similarities in brains which has been tracked.

If there was any conclusion that could be clearly stated with high confidence, a test focusing on brains would be being used right now to categorise people this way. There isn’t, of course.

Why is anything segregated by sex? You really don't understand this? Really?

Nobody wants transpeople treated badly. At all. But there seems to be a real intolerance about third spaces as an acceptable safe solution.

There is unfortunately a choice: full inclusion of transpeople into single sex spaces means thay there is no longer a protected single sex space. That is an erosion of sex based rights and unacceptable.

I think most people recognise that the male sex are more likely to commit violent acts. Nobody is saying that all men are or that no women commit violent or sex crimes, but a reasonable person would acknowledge that men are more likely amd more powerful perpetrators.

A transwoman and a biological female are both more likely to be scared of a biological man because he is more likely to pose a risk due to DNA/hormones.

Unfortunately, no matter how non-threatening a transwoman is, she still possess male DNA.

She herself may not pose a risk but she has the same fear: biological men.

I understand that it might be offensive to say, but having a penis removed doesn't change her genetic make up. That is the crux of the issue.

A third space is safe. If transwomen are women, why not allow a transwing? I acknowledge that its still seperation but if transwomen are women, why does a third space with other transwomen not feel like an acceptable solution?

Transmen are not fighting to be allowed into male toilets or male prisons. I expect this is because we all recognise that men are usually more likely to commit serious crimes and physically have more strength than biological females. There's a reason women would rather encounter a Bear over a Man in the woods.

Biological females have a deep rooted fear that men can be dangerous, no matter if they have transitioned. Its unfortunate that transwomen are tarred with that brush, but I think its something transmen understand and aren't fighting to be placed in male spaces like prisons or hospital wings. It would be catastrophic for them if there was no third space and they were placed in male prisons.

There can't be a right to single sex spaces AND a third space. Its one or the other. Transmens safety matters as much as transwomens and I think that gets forgotten in the trans debate because its transwomen shouting g the loudest for access to single sex spaces.

Actually, your definition is quite suitable for every human’s body to be categorised. Developmental and evolutionary biologists use that type of categorisation too.

No.
They're still a man, they just chose to cut their penis off.

I think there needs to be a prison wing in one or two prisons in the country that caters for transgender prisoners. It wouldn't be hard to make that happen and I don't know why it hasn't happened already.

I have worked in many prisons and transgender women struggle in the male estate. However, I don't think it would be appropriate for them to be placed in the female estate (and quite a few have sex offences or would be a risk, but even those not considered a risk to females, I would not see it appropriate since many many female prisoners have experienced significant trauma and I don't think this would help them feel safe).

Taxi drivers who learn the “knowledge” also have differences in their brains when scanned. Does that mean they’re no longer a biological male or female? No. It’s bizarre this attempt to say that biological sex is indicated by or disproved by a brain scan or that it’s a feature of the brain and that you’re only male or female if your brain conforms, when a person’s sex actually affects the entire body.

It’s because sex affects the body, and its strength and power, making the sexes quite different in that way, that we have separate female spaces in situations where females could be more at risk, eg when sleeping, undressing etc, as well as for privacy, dignity, and protection from men’s astronomically higher violent and sex offending rates. These things do not all disappear when a male transitions and statistically some of the risks are higher. That is what matters, not a false ideology that says a male is a “woman” and he might be sad if everyone isn’t forced to agree.

The ‘tolerance’ keating is another word that now means the opposite to what the original intentions were. Making it another meaningless word.

Because a ‘tolerant’ society would, of course, allow women to call a male person with a transgender identity a ‘man’ because it would tolerate the different beliefs. There is some weird linguistic arguments on this thread that are all too familiar to past linguistic arguments on other threads. It seems rather hypocritical to declare that threads are dominated by a particular group when those making such accusations change their username frequently. All rather convenient to allow such accusations to be made really.

They did set one up. Nobody wanted to be in it.

Bottom surgery??
Wtf? If you aren't 6 years old, please don't insult our intelligence. Use the adult words

Genderism relies on twee euphemisms to obfuscate what's happening.

Sure, nobody sensible wants anyone treated badly. I agree that dehumanising anyone is awful and wrong.

Firstly it's important to note that 'vulnerable' does not necessarily rquate to harmless.

Secondly, the word 'badly' needs a bit if unpacking, here. I don't think placing transwomen in a separate wing is treating them 'badly', but many activists insist that if transwomen are not placed with women they are being mistreated. This is nothing more than using women as a validation tool for men.

A special section was built at Downview for that purpose and it was rejected because it was deemed transphobic to expect males with transgender identities to be housed there.

@Cheesytoastie you said you're a Reddit poster. Do you want to know how many posts I've seen fantasising about the violent death of Wes Streeting MP on there yesterday? Now tell us how many can be found on Mumsnet.

And maybe it's worth you asking those who are doing this to not actually threaten violence whenever they are denied something they want. It's really not making a case for why women would want to share our spaces with males.

It’s also a strange mindset that people get into trying to defend gender ideology, that everything should be tolerated and celebrated (except of course those who aren’t willing to tolerate and celebrate everything who deserve to be ostracised as bigots). In fact we live in a society that doesn’t tolerate a whole load of stuff, that’s why we have a legal system, as well as social stigmas.

No, society and people in general don’t tolerate people pretending to be something they’re not, forcing their fetishes on others, involving children in sexual adult entertainment, paedophilia apologism, kids being taught sexist unevidenced claptrap in school or having their health destroyed, and people losing their jobs for using the correct pronoun for someone’s sex, even accidentally. These intolerances are actually OK and reasonable.

If all trans people want is “tolerance” then fine, just be reasonable. Society does tolerate gender nonconformity and has done for centuries. Stop making out that people are “intolerant” if they don’t like being made to lie and agree with someone else’s fantasy, or don’t think children should be medically experimented on. no one is expected to tolerate anything like that in any other area.

Reddit is an absolute cesspool of trans ideology. The lesbian subs are taken over by men, the information on the trans subs is ridiculous ie that trans women have "periods", lots of posts about how to achieve the "simpering/feeling faint female orgasm", young teens on those subs are being guided to illegal sites where they can purchase DIY hormones and being groomed by much older trans people.

That's without even addressing the horrors of the surgery specific sites where almost all of them have horrendous complications yet blindly support each other in pursuing dangerous and experimental surgeries.

Yes, Reddit is awful. That's why I find the complaints about Mumsnet so rich.

It's exactly as you say, thread after thread on Reddit and X calling for extreme violence against "TERFS". Rape threats, death threats, women at speaking events being assaulted by trans activists.

I've never met a TERF yet who has either called for violence, or enacted violence upon a trans person.

Part of me thinks a lot of the mad ideologies that are floating around are 4chan/Reddit wind ups that have got out of hand.

Well to me if someone's gone to the effort of having their dick chopped off and lived as a woman for a long time to get there then they've earned their stripes a lot more than some bloke with a wonky 2 day wig on and a five o'clock shadow......I agree. Plus let's face it they'd be eaten alive in a men's prison.

Maybe the best way to meet in the middle tho is to have a middle ground prison for trans people ??

I agree. Vocal minorities spending far too much time in these extreme forums forget that it's not representative of the real world.

Part of me thinks a lot of the mad ideologies that are floating around are 4chan/Reddit wind ups that have got out of hand.

There used to be a video online from a decade or so ago, possibly still is, of a bunch of MRAs sitting around discussing how great it would be and how it would stick it to feminists.

The issue being that many trans people are very vocal about the fact they will not accept "third spaces". They demand to be accepted as their chosen gender and see anything that makes clear the difference as a violation of their rights. And that's what we're up against.

As was agreed, built at Downview and rejected for being transphobic to consider that those male people should be housed there.