To think that if a man has had bottom surgery they should be put in a woman’s prison?

[Bex5490]

Genuinely interested in this and not trying to goad just want to understand.

When people talk of the threat of a man in women’s spaces, I assume the danger is because of their penis.

So if that’s gone then should they be categorised as a woman?

I’m kind of of the opinion that if you’re willing to put that much effort in (as in penis removal) regardless of your chromosomes, I’m happy for you to be called a woman…is this wrong?

Sorry, must have missed that - fast moving thread.

It was a single word "absolutely", the next sentence was about trans friends again.

Oh how I do wish there was a laugh button.

Ummmm!!! This is another very bizarre post. Complete with capitalising the words The and Truth and It.

I wonder what @Lostcat reckons would happen if 50 men and 50 trans women were marooned on a desert Island for 100 years.

Would there be human life or a pile of bones?

I'm interested in @Lostcat's opinion on this as apparently what we all have known to be the Truth of human sex is a singular insight into 'it'? So what is 'it' that they are referring to.

I am truly fascinated to hear more about this belief system.

I don’t like to think of anyone who is vulnerable being treated badly.

Except women who are vulnerable to the greater strength and power and propensity to violence of males, being trapped in a prison with them, because the males might be sad. The men's feelings and vulnerability matter, but the women's apparently don't.

In fact, it is treating the women far more badly to force them to share their safe space (because that is why female prisons exist) with males, than to expect a male to go in a male prison, with protections if needed.

You and a whole bunch of people have been sold this massive lie that any man who says he's a woman is "vulnerable". The stats show otherwise. They show that trans-identifying males are not just AS likely as men in general to be sex offenders, but more likely. They show that far from transition preventing suicide, it makes no difference or sometimes seems to increase the risk. Unsurprisingly because it is a terrible "solution" to wanting to be something you can never be – people are just left with health problems and complications a reduced dating pool and still know they haven't changed sex.

You know something, I'll humour you. We all know you're talking obfuscatory nonsense, including you, but for a moment, I will pretend that sex in humans is a postmodern, opaque, amorphous concept that is very very difficult to understand and subject to various subjective truths. It's not at all, obviously, but for this post, we will all pretend it is.

The fact still remains that you are the one attempting to force your truth on everyone else. You are not satisfied with a third, mixed sex space that allows for your idea that men might be women and doesn't distinguish between the two. You want it to be impossible for anyone to create a space that does accept women as a separate class of human to men. Despite claiming that sex is subjective, you want to create a space that is supposedly designated for women, although you can't define what a woman is, and men should be allowed into it.

And there cannot be any other options available for those who hold a different truth, that men cannot be women. Anyone who has a different truth to you and wants a space for female women only must not only be forbidden from doing so - as it isn't your truth - but they are also toxic and morally inferior. Your truth is the only one that can be acknowledged. There can be no spaces that do not uphold your truth, even though you can't even define what that truth is. Literally everyone must play along with you.

And you have the utter gall to accuse others of proselytising, or being dogmatic? Do Jewish people demand that there be no Christian spaces? Do Sikhs demand that there be no Muslim spaces? Why is your religious belief the only one that nobody is allowed to deviate from? And you demand that women undress before men, surrender their sporting opportunities, remove their safeguards and be redefined out of existence to uphold it?

I would ask you who the hell you think you are, but that's what got us into this mess!

No one has a responsibility to put themselves at a higher risk to protect someone else excect parents to their children. It is not reasonable to expect women, many of whom have been raped and sexual abused, to share a locked cell with a male. It's inhumane.

If they commit the criminal
offence as a man, they should be tried as a man and sent to a male jail. Having a penis has nothing to do with it

So if the male says they were a woman when they committed a crime or hold a GRC with the sex of female which prison should they be in?

No

males and females need to be separated at times to protect females from male aggression and violence

that some males having had surgery want to invade females spaces regardless of concerns many females raise tells you everything about that person - they still carry male entitlement

a wing should be provided in a male prison simple solution and safety for all is then considered

Fucking hell 🤣

Let me be clear. Me and my women friends are not subject to the same day to day challenges and prejudices that my trans friends are. And I say my women friends, not women in generally. I’m looking at this through the lens of my own experience, and that of my trans and woman friends

When people talk of the threat of a man in women’s spaces, I assume the danger is because of their penis.

You assume wrong. Very badly wrong.

I do not want any biological male in women's single sex (and supposedly safe) places. Ever.

You’re talking about a man, regardless. Man’s prison.

Good grief that was a self righteous rant. She hasn't said any of those things.

Erm no, mutilating genitals does not change someone’s sex.

The world has literally gone mad.

Right, I have now read this again.

Can you please point out to me where it disproves this point that I have made here below:

"There IS evidence that hormones will make some changes to the brain, however, this is consistent with any person who is taking the very same exogenous hormone regime. To be clear, if a male person takes the exact same hormones for another purpose other than transition, this will be consistent with someone doing so for transition."

In this article, can you please point out where they tested males taking exogenous oestrogen and the other chemicals that a male on hormone treatment takes that have a gender identity vs those on the same drugs that do not have a gender identity?

Because all this study points out is that "There IS evidence that hormones will make some changes to the brain".

That is in NO way stating that males with a gender identity have a 'different' brain to other male people undertaking the exact same drug regime.

or as you posted:

"Genuinely transgender people do believe they were born in the wrong body and even have noticeable differences in their brains from non transgender people of the same sex so there is clearly something causing the way they feel, it's not just made up."

In fact, the study you have posted even made this remark:

"However, longitudinal studies are scarce and a recent large study did not find any differences between TW-pre and post-CHT"

And all that this study can say is that the male people on specific exogenous hormones have brains that change to neither be easily classifiable as male or female. It does not say that those brains replicated female people's brains.

It really feels like you went and googled for something that you felt supported your point, when it has not supported your point at all.

There is no test at all for whether a male person is truly transgender or not. It is false to say they have different brains because this is not based on evidence at all, it is based on misinformation.

So, what is it again that you feel makes a person truly transgender vs not transgender at all? Taking hormones to make their brains shrink? Because that then puts your other claims about "It is not transphobic to point out that men who are clearly exploiting self ID laws by only pretending to be transgender for the duration of their prison sentence, are not genuinely transgender." in significant doubt too.

In fact, if a male person is taking hormones to exploit the laws as you describe, they are exactly the same in brain as all other male people taking the treatment.

Unless you can show something else to support your claim, please stop spreading misinformation.

Your women friends are not representative of women in prison, just as your transwomen friends are not representative of all transwomen.

Not that any of that particularly matters. This is not oppression top trumps. No one group should be compromised for another when it comes to securing their safety.

It's exactly what she says when she claims the truth about sex is subjective and yet no spaces that don't adhere to her own (undefined) truth should exist.

And I'll notuce there's no rebuttal here, either. You guys know the truth as much as we do. You just think you're better people for pretending not to, although God knows why.

It's unbelievable isn't - state sanctioned sexual assault on incarcerated women as an addition to their sentence. Do the Judges who pass sentence on women inform them of this additional punishment as part of their sentence?

Who in their right mind thinks offering up incarcerated women on a plate as sacrificial lambs is acceptable?

You guys know the truth as much as we do. You just think you're better people for pretending not to

It's an extraordinary state of affairs, isn't it? How did we get here?

just as your transwomen friends are not representative of all transwomen.

Exactly. So whilst I do not agree that trans women should be put in women’s prisons, I would be upset for my trans woman friend if she was put in a man’s prison. I’m baffled as to why some poster’s believe my friendship makes me anti women’s rights. Baffled but not bothered

Sorry, I am trying to follow this over the pages and I apologise you have clarified this already,

Would you be upset because you feel your friends would attacked if they were put into a vulnerable male prison section and you feel they would be safer in the female section or upset that they were not treated as being female?

I get that.

What I don't understand is the relevance of bringing up the 'challenges and prejudices' being faced. The type of women who end up in prison faces multiple challenges and prejudices also. It comes across like you're trying to build a narrative of sympathy for one side and not the other.

And I know you keep denying that, but when every single post you've made is about your devastation for one group and barely a mention of the other, it tells a tale.

I think that we are so very used to prioritising what men want that it is still the default when it comes to a relatively new concept.

People told themselves it was the new gay marriage and therefore supporting it would absolutely put them on the right side of history and mark them as worthy and good. In a world that routinely deprioritises women and has plenty of useful slurs and stereotypes for when they don't acquiesce, it was easy to categorise women who objected as Karens and terfs, irrational and hysterical harpies obsessed with genitals and toilets.

And as a wise person assigned male at birth once said, it is easier to trick someone than to convince them that they've been tricked...