To think that if a man has had bottom surgery they should be put in a woman’s prison?

[Bex5490]

Genuinely interested in this and not trying to goad just want to understand.

When people talk of the threat of a man in women’s spaces, I assume the danger is because of their penis.

So if that’s gone then should they be categorised as a woman?

I’m kind of of the opinion that if you’re willing to put that much effort in (as in penis removal) regardless of your chromosomes, I’m happy for you to be called a woman…is this wrong?

But the trouble is, as soon as you count even one male as a woman, it is to the detriment of women. 'Woman' then becomes a word meaning something other than adult human female. And at a stroke women lose any words to define ourselves or our distinct needs as a group.

I have said repeatedly that this shouldn’t be at the detriment of women.

It is always to the detriment of women to deny their sex based rights and turn their spaces and protections into validation tools for men. It destroys their primary purpose and nature. If you understand why women need separate changing rooms, showers, sports and so on, then you understand why prisons are the same, and it isn't dehumanising to realise it. It upholds the humanity of women as equal people who do not exist to propagate a male delusion.

Hard disagree, it is really important that we use correct language.

If we are worried about a violent 'woman' being in a woman's prison and we can't call that woman male because you see that as toxic, how can we defend women's single sex spaces and keep women prisoners safe from this male?

The whole 'trans women are women' was about hiding the reality of the loss of spaces and basic safeguarding for women. It was what led to Isla Bryson being put into a women's prison.

Truth is not toxicity. Woman means something and for it to mean woman, it can't also mean man.

Biological truth

I don’t disagree. But I know both would have likely taken their own life if they’d been unable to transition. This is where the contradiction for me comes in. It is problematic for women but neither of my friends day to day are because of how they live their lives. I realise many on this thread believe they are problematic by existing as they do. And I realise we can’t discriminate at a society level (not sure how people have interpreted my comments as prioritising men over women). Transwomen are either accepted or they’re not. But as an individual knowing these friends as individuals, I can discriminate and I choose their friendship.

🙄

Whose truth?

Truth should never be considered toxic. If it is based on material reality that will continue to abide whether people ‘believe’ it or not it is simply the truth.

Are you talking about philosophical belief?

Do you roll your eyes at gravity too?

@Runnieknows what about compared with one of your female friends in a women's prison who has to share her cell and shower with a man? And who will lose her good behaviour privileges if she complains.

The real, provable, definable, observable truth that sex in humans is binary and immutable and every human is either male or female. As opposed to gender, which is none of those things, meaningless as a concept, and yet is supposed to transcend sex.

Provable reality doesn't belong to anyone. It exists on its own. You can find that toxic if you like but, as is the nature of truth, it remains true. And unlike your truth, it doesn't lead to women being attacked by men, erased and losing opportunities. Toxicity? Don't make me laugh.

"I'm sorry if the truth offends you."

None of the solutions suggested by women have been well received, in fact they gave often been aggressively rejected.

We are talking about a group of men who demand validation from women and nothing less than inclusion in women's spaces will do.

Compromise is not possible so I will do everything to protect single sex spaces.

I think you are asking in good faith but I also think you are missing quite a bit of history to the debate.

How evangelical.

anyway as I was saying OP - please don’t let your ideas on this be influenced by the nonsense (/angry mob) on social media.

xx

Gravity 😂. No. Only at trite mumsnet posts.

That's all you've got?

At no point. Women are not 'men without a penis'. A man without a penis is a man. He stays out of women's spaces. No qualifiers on that.
And to put a transman into e.g. a men's prison is to put her in severe danger - she is a woman.

And this is what it comes down to. You have no answer. You know we are right. Everyone does. Everyone knows who the women are. Everyone demonstrates it one way or another.

The question, then, is: why do you value male self image over female rights, to the point where you will do anything you can to suppress truth?

In my head that came out just like the great and powerful Oz telling Dorothy to pay no attention to that man behind the curtain. I wonder why?

Sorry? What is 'evangelical' about my post?

Or is projection? Because categorising my post as 'evangelical' certainly seems to be based in ideological thinking just as declaring that 'truth is toxic'. If you think truth is toxic and you cannot engage in discussion, you must struggle with many aspects of life.

Because this thread is about transwomen
as well as women? I’m talking about my experience of friendship with transwomen and how I would feel if they were put in prison with men. In answer to a direct question I confirmed I’d feel equally heartbroken for my women friends if they were imprisoned with a man. They shouldn’t be. I’ve known my oldest women friend for 50 years.

I’m emotionally intelligent enough to feel both things at the same time. And I don’t feel obliged to value one friendship more than another suit the views of others.

Despite what Nursey said, a boy without a winkle is not a girl.

So, no. If you are born male, you are male.

Well I think you've identified the problem there. Transwomen can never, genuinely be accepted as 'women' because they are not so and it can ultimately be harmful to society to pretend that is the case.

I wish people well and hope for better mental health support for them. But ultimately we cannot compromise 50 % of the populations needs to affirm something that a tiny proportion wish was true, but isn't.

Sorry? What is 'evangelical' about my post?

Well you keep talking about The Truth - under-scribed by a dogmatic belief that you have some kind of singular insight into “It”

Already answered that. On no planet do I agree with that.

I’m not sure why from what I’ve said you’d perceive that I’d think that’s acceptable.