To think that if a man has had bottom surgery they should be put in a woman’s prison?

[Bex5490]

Genuinely interested in this and not trying to goad just want to understand.

When people talk of the threat of a man in women’s spaces, I assume the danger is because of their penis.

So if that’s gone then should they be categorised as a woman?

I’m kind of of the opinion that if you’re willing to put that much effort in (as in penis removal) regardless of your chromosomes, I’m happy for you to be called a woman…is this wrong?

It’s not about it being ‘nothing to do with’ women. It’s about it not negatively affecting women. Women can care about vulnerable trans people without thinking that women should be put in danger to protect them.

I don't have a responsibility to men who commit crimes and want to pretend to be women.

Their choices are nothing to do with me.

I think women do more than enough to mop up bad male behaviour without being asked to act as shields for men being abused by other men.

Why do you think women should make themselves less safe because of actions that have nothing to with them?

The only conclusion I can draw is that you think women are of lesser value.

Males are being placed in Scottish prisons on the basis of self id. Right now.

The fact they are pretending must not be obvious enough....

And if part of the evidence that they are pretending is detransition when they leave prison, it's a bit late by then.

Quite

First, it isn't just about threat. It is also about not being locked in a space that is shared with a man. Penis or no, transitioned or no, this is a man who will be showering with women and sharing rooms with women. What about the woman's dignity? Is it sold so cheaply?

Second, please delve into what you understand to be "a real process of transition". My brother has "transitioned" in the sense that he no longer has a penis, has taken pills to grow boobs, and owns numerous wigs (fairly bald). I would not want to share a shower with him and nor should any female prisoner have to. Really they shouldn't.

those who have gone through a real process of transition should be kept safe from men too

This is not for women to solve. It's all about the men. Let them find the solutions.

Oh I see I am late to this, I will read the thread now :)

I have said in multiple posts now that I have listened and agree that there should be a separate wing for trans prisoners so how is that asking women to act as a shield?

I should have known by your ‘why is this so hard for you to understand?’ comment that you would reply with some type of insult or insinuation.

For the record, not that I think it adds any value to this discussion (where I have in fact listened to the posts of people who know more than me on this subject) I do not think women have lesser value than men. 🙄

But you seem to think it is incumbent on women to be the solution when men are abused by other men.

Why else did you object to my post which stated that a solution needed to be found that left women out of it?

Structure: Our results underline that the brain structure of TIs is similar to both, the brain structure of their perceived gender and biological sex.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't this specifically relate to the effect of hormones? Hence, "Future studies should further dissect effects of gender dysphoria from depression, and effects of hormonal treatment from the state of being a TI."

And the conclusion states:

"This implies that brain structure of TW differs from both CG-men and -women."

Yet, you feel this study is strong (based effectively on 8 male people with transgender identities 'before they started exogenous hormones' because 18 had already started on hormones)? Why?

And we can all agree, I think, than the most appropriate setting for transwomen, if unsafe in the general make estate, is a separate ring in a male prison.

Why should women prisons be mentioned at all?

No, that’s not correct. I’d feel gutted because having gone through extensive counselling and committed to surgery (both over 20 years ago) then having lived peacefully, not intruding on women’s spaces (neither partake in team sports, both use the disabled toilet, both buy clothes online) they could not continue that life. There is not one shred of male entitlement about either and they both married men I accept they can’t but doesn’t mean as a friend, I can’t feel gutted for them.

Yes

Why?

You can care about one group, but not make things better for them by taking things from another group who've nothing to do with their problems.

If I feel vulnerable as a woman in an A&E full of lairy drunks on a Saturday night, should I be allowed in the children's ward? It'd make me feel safer, maybe be safer. But the trouble is, that only solves the problem for me. It takes safety away from the children who actually belong there and can't go anywhere else.

If you think humans have a responsibility to each other, don't you think that transwomen have responsibility towards women who need women -only spaces to feel safe or be safe? Or does the responsibility only lie with women to solve a problem some male people have with other male people?

There are several kinds of vulnerable men who, for their own safety, are kept in a separate wing to the majority of prison inmates. I don’t see why a man who has had his penis removed could not be assigned to such a wing. Or are you suggesting that all vulnerable (to other men) male prisoners should be sent to women’s prisons? Are women’s prisons to become a safe haven for male prisoners? Then they cease to be women’s prisons, and where should the women prisoners be held?

What have I said that indicates I’m unable yo centre women in a question about women. I don’t believe transmen should be in women’s prisons. But that doesn’t mean I couldn’t sympathise with one of my trans friends if they were sent to a make prison. And I mean my trans friends, got trans people as a whole.

I am starting to agree that it is wrong to go along with calling them women etc.

please please don’t let your opinions on this be influenced by the toxicity on mumsnet

But everyone knows, including them, that they were being 'affirmed' in something that wasn't factually true.

So when it comes to a point where this is problematic for women, we can't just brush it under the carpet. Surely this needs to be baked into discussions about transitioning right from the start?

I don’t understand your placing of responsibility. If a woman is an abuser is it only other women’s job to deal with it?

We are part of a society as a whole. It is our collective responsibility to police it and keep people safe.

Are asylum seekers just the responsibility of other asylum seekers?

I have said repeatedly that this shouldn’t be at the detriment of women. I think this is a non argument tbh

Why can't transwomen prisoners be held in the male prison, again in a separate wing if that's necessary for safety?

Prisons aren't validation tools for men who want to be women. They aren't sex segregated to reassure women that everyone knows they're women. So if their purpose isn't validation of male self image, why isn't the male prison appropriate for all male prisoners?

You do understand this because you've recognised that men and women sometimes need to be separated. The reasons for this are the same in prisons as elsewhere: because it is necessary due to biology. Unless prisons are actually about validating men, why won't a separate wing in the male prison do?

You were asked about your female friends. Your response was about your trans (who you acknowledge are actually male) friends. And you've done it again now.

I said that a solution to male on male abuse needed to be found that left women out of it.

You objected to that post and I would like to understand why?

Do you think women should compromise their safety for these men? Or in what other way do you think they should involve themselves in this problem?

And this graph shows those male people are still more likely to be 'classified' as male than 'female' using probability.

Thus it really is not an accurate measurement tool at all.

Could you please explain why you think it is? Perhaps you have access to the study whereas I am relying on what is available free on the internet?