To think that if a man has had bottom surgery they should be put in a woman’s prison?

[Bex5490]

Genuinely interested in this and not trying to goad just want to understand.

When people talk of the threat of a man in women’s spaces, I assume the danger is because of their penis.

So if that’s gone then should they be categorised as a woman?

I’m kind of of the opinion that if you’re willing to put that much effort in (as in penis removal) regardless of your chromosomes, I’m happy for you to be called a woman…is this wrong?

They're not in there for failure to pay for a TV licence, you know.

Genuinely transgender people do believe they were born in the wrong body and even have noticeable differences in their brains from non transgender people of the same sex so there is clearly something causing the way they feel, it's not just made up.

This is nonsense if you know anything about how the scientific method works. To actually test for these "different" brains you'd have to also test gay people, people who are gender-non-conforming but don't think they're trans, and peple in none of these categories as a control. They didn't, it was just a few trans-identifying people and it wasn't even clear what effect taking hormones could have, or how you're supposed to tell what brain markers would indicate being more like the opposite sex's brains - so it's not a reliable study.

However, what if this was true? If your brain scan showed a different/"trans" brain, should you be forced to live as trans? And why would "rea" trans peope want self-ID? Surely if they think there's a scan to show you're "really" trans, they would want that scan to be used to weed out confused teenagers who ight regret transition, or predators who were just lying to get access to women's spaces/sports etc and giving other trans people a bad name?

Why don't transactivists call for this, instead of self-ID? Self-ID is an absolute gift to predators and abusers. Why are transactivists campaigning for it if there's this scan available?

there is clearly something causing the way they feel

Yes, a thing called gender stereotypes and tomboy girls and effeminate boys, plus a lot of confused autistic kids and sexual abuse survivors, being made to feel if they don't fit into stereotypes or feel uncomfortable with their body, they must be the opposite sex. If society wasn't so sexist and homophobic they could just (actually) be who they are.

Regardless of how many fucks people do or should give ...

Men, being mistreated in men's spaces, by other men - should not be women's problem to solve.

The concept of 'true transpeople' is actually very transphobic. I wonder if those who have made these claims understand this?

But yes, if a person with a transgender identity had a 'different brain', the discussion would have been significantly different because we would have a test for it. And we don't. Because it wasnt' true last time I checked, and I doubt this has changed.

It has been used as a concept to emotionally manipulate people into supporting the claims that some people are 'truly transgender' vs others so that a group of that sub-group of male people can access female single sex provisions.

I think women's spaces should remain women's spaces, no exceptions. I'm a big fan of the 'Hold the Line' movement - we've got into this situation by blurring the lines...'those who have GRC's are women, or just those that have had SRS....or only those that pass' - when we all know none of these things make you a woman. They make you a man with a GRC/SRS/reasonable chance of deceiving.

The default should be women's spaces only for women - no exceptions.

Trans issues are nothing to do with women as a group. If they are unsafe in male prisons that's for male prisons to solve.

On a human level, there’s something I don’t like about labelling a whole demographic of people as a threat.

On a human level, there is not a single culture in history that I can think of that does not or did not recognise that men and women are separate categories and that it is not always appropriate to mix them together. In many cases women need sex based rights because of sex based oppression and sex based disadvantage. On a human level, women have always been and in many places still are oppressed due to their female biology.

No decent man feels slighted and labelled as a threat because he's not allowed in while women get undressed or are confined. Framing it this way is a way of delegitimising women's right to single sex spaces and suggesting it's their responsibility not to acknowledge threats or protect against them because it might upset men.

I’d think the person painting themselves was insulting and the person who tattooed themselves was seriously delusional.

I’d think the tattooer though was also incredibly vulnerable. And in a decent society I would want to protect this person too however ridiculous their delusions were.

I am starting to agree that it is wrong to go along with calling them women etc.

But I take real issue with the dehumanising of any demographic of people and that is what I see on Twitter etc. with how some people talk about transgender people. When people are thought of as less than, humans are capable of treating them in the worst ways.

This is why I struggle with this subject so much I think. Because I don’t like to think of anyone who is vulnerable being treated badly. Not vulnerable women and not vulnerable trans people who are often ostracised from family etc and must live a pretty miserable existence if they truly believe their body is so wrong it needs to be mutilated.

And that brain scan thing is a classic example of the kind of pseudo-scientific garbage that is being used to prop up the whole ideology and to try to force people to stop objecting. People believe it because it's "a scientific study". But two minutes of actual logical thought shows you it makes no sense and isn't how trans-identifying people decide they are trans at all.

Anything that is being written into law and institutional policies, like those affecting prisons, sports, hospital wards etc, should be subject to a logical thought process, clear and rigorously tested evidence and a clear-eyed examination of the effects on everyone involved. For this ideology, that's all gone out of the window, because they have successfully made a whole cohort of mainly leftist politicians and policymakers absolutely terrified of being "bigots".

I understand your point about the de-humanisation aspect and I can empathise with that.

However, I think when a populace is asked to go against their conscience. E.g calling a blatant man a ‘she’ or risk loosing your job.

Much sympathy is lost.

I actually believe trans people should be treated as any other mentally ill person. With compassion, medication (if at all possible) and therapy.

Not asking 99.9% of the population to join in with the delusion. We don’t do that with the delusions that come with any other mental health sickness.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41386-020-0666-3

This is why I struggle with this subject so much I think. Because I don’t like to think of anyone who is vulnerable being treated badly.

If it is badly treating a transwomen to be put in a man's prison, this needs to be resolved in a way that leaves women out of it.

The type of women who end up in prison are usually very vulnerable themselves.

This is the study that didn't control for even basic factors, like sexual orientation. Plus, the findings aren't anything like as clear cut as 'a female brain exists and some men have one'.

But I take real issue with the dehumanising of any demographic of people and that is what I see on Twitter etc. with how some people talk about transgender people.

They should certainly not be dehumanised. Sadly, Twitter is an absolute cesspit of abuse, racism and sexism and good luck changing any of that. The fact that some people on Twitter are abusive does not negate women's sex based rights. We can't say that women should get their necessary protections only when nobody on the Internet is bring horrible.

If we are going to go there, JKR has received an immeasurable amount of abuse on there including death threats and men claiming to be women posting her home address with bomb making guides. And yet the realisation of what this means, when such men demand access to women's spaces and to be considered female, seems to be much slower.

It is not transphobic to point out that men who are clearly exploiting self ID laws by only pretending to be transgender for the duration of their prison sentence, are not genuinely transgender.

How do you distinguish between 'genuine' and 'pretending' here?

If some men have it (and transmen, egi are women, haven't), then it isn't a female brain.

Ridiculous that gender theory groups together things that it can't define, with no designated shared traits that make it distinct, but can't accept the clear, observable, definable nature of sex.

Yes, such a vulnerable group they are getting people fired for using correct biological terms. Sending death threats to people who disagree with them, and campaigning to allow children to harm themselves with medical and surgical intervention when these actual vulnerable children can in no way make a decision like that and understand the consequences themselves. You are naïve in your view of vulnerability. It's what the transactivist count on to capture the kind.

But it's also not as clear cut as "Transgender peoples feelings are baseless and there's zero evidence that there is a physiological element to the way they feel" is it? More research is needed.

But the easy solution where places are segregated by sex is by far the best way to keep women safe.

It doesn't matter if a person is pretending to be trans to get access or is trans if we simply say none of them can get access on account of the fact that both sets are male.

There is no trans purity test.

As others have said women shouldn't have to bear the burden here, not even for the most well meaning male.

I just don’t think society functions on leave us out of it. Yes women are vulnerable. So are some races and children and animals.

Do we all just look out for our own interests? Should childless women not care about mothers? Or white people not care about any other races? I am agreeing that this care shouldn’t come at the expense of women’s safety but I disagree with the nothing to do with us rhetoric.

I think as humans we have a responsibility to each other.

Stonewall would disagree with you. Why can't trans people be bad people? Any demographic has some bad eggs; why is transgenderism the only exception? It's entirely self reported, based on a feeling that is undefinable but must never be questioned when someone claims it. To deny that is transphobic, apparently.

But if self ID laws do indeed provide an open door to women's spaces for fake transwomen, don't you think those laws should not exist in that form?

So are female prisoners responsible for other vulnerable male prisoners or are you giving one group special treatment?

Why would it even matter, given that sex is binary and immutable?

But this one, deeply flawed study is no more than one deeply flawed study that doesn't prove anything at all.

Someone who only transitions for the duration of a prison sentence then continues living their life as normal afterwards is clearly not genuinely transgender are they. They are pretending to be transgender because they know that enables them to have an easier time in prison. The timong of their transition and detransition makes it obvious. Along with the fact they have never even mentioned feeling like a woman until they were convicted of a crime.

Anyone who tries to make out this is not obvious is being facetious.

Why are women being expected to provide these solutions though? Why are they being told (with threats) to budge up and give up their services/spaces/resources? Why are women's things the default solution to be given away?