To think that if a man has had bottom surgery they should be put in a woman’s prison?

[Bex5490]

Genuinely interested in this and not trying to goad just want to understand.

When people talk of the threat of a man in women’s spaces, I assume the danger is because of their penis.

So if that’s gone then should they be categorised as a woman?

I’m kind of of the opinion that if you’re willing to put that much effort in (as in penis removal) regardless of your chromosomes, I’m happy for you to be called a woman…is this wrong?

What next. Men with erectile dysfunction should be allowed in women’s prisons? No, it’s a man, one who has gone through male puberty. One who would be much stronger than the women. Men go to men’s prisons, irrespective of what he’s done with his penis

However if for example someone transitioned before they committed their crime and are being jailed for let’s say a white collar crime then absolutely they should be able to go to a women’s Prison

Why? They aren't a woman.

A "white collar" conviction is no guarantee that a man is and will remain safe though is it?

I'm gobsmacked by how many people seem to think 'woman' is a some kind of catch-all, beta category for any human without a functioning dick.

Did no one study biology?

But your scenario actively causes distress to the female people who can accurately identify this person's sex.

If even just one female person in that prison correctly identified that person's sex, is she considered acceptable collateral damage to support what has been now presented by transgender academics themselves to be a philosophical belief?

So we're meant to put women at increased risk just for that, to appease someone's feelings? Why? Since when were feelings more important than safety?

They are still biological men, whatever op they’ve had.

So, no, I don’t.

If they need trans wings, then they need to build them. 🤷‍♀️

It would no longer be a women's prison once men are allowed in there.

That sounds like a problem for them and the rest of the male population. Not one for women to deal with.

They chose to mutilate themselves and they chose to commit crimes, so tough if they're put in a prison with the other blokes.

If a man has his penis cut off, he's still a man, and there is no reason why he shouldn't be housed in a male prison.

Me neither. But I bet the problem doesn't even arise.

How many transmen commit crimes serious enough to go to jail? I'd be surprised if it reached three figures. There are enough places in the womens' jails, so it is easy to create an area for them.

I think it's a good question to ask, because it is something people think about, it's not just you. The dialogue in the media and world has been so one sided and controlled that sometimes logic disappears out the window because we can feel sorry for people and want them to be protected, but that doesn't mean giving up our rights as women. The reason you are getting such strong responses is because men have been trampling women's rights for a while now and fury is high.

Hearing the reasons why women don't want these men in our spaces is useful because it clarifies the situation and shows the women's side, the side that has been bullied into silence in a lot of areas. Education of the need for women's rights is key and I'm pretty sure there are a lot of lurkers on here who are learning or having their view of reality confirmed and not feeling so alone. I felt very alone in my biological sex beliefs for a while until I found Mumsnet. I think things seem to be changing though and women's voices and concerns are now getting out into the wider world. Or maybe that's just because I'm not looking for information in the right places.

A man who 'transitioned' to become a woman just as they were going to prison then 'detransitioned' as they were leaving clearly are not genuinely transgender and are exploiting the system, which isn't surprising behaviour from criminals.

Genuinely transgender people do believe they were born in the wrong body and even have noticeable differences in their brains from non transgender people of the same sex so there is clearly something causing the way they feel, it's not just made up.

You can't use the actions of criminals exploiting a system to prove that people cannot feel they are born in the wrong body.

Such a person shouldn't be in jail at all, there are other ways of dealing with them and then we resolve the problem.

If transwomen don't want to go to male jails, don't commit serious crime. I said it above and I will say it again.

It's not something they are being forced into, they have agency.

I think the example of Rachel Dolezal is a good one and one that resonates with me.

The reason that she was so offensive to black people was not because she thought she was black. It was offensive because she used her white privilege to elevate herself into positions that a true black woman would have had to work 10x harder to get into.

For example, she was promoted far more quickly than other dark skin women in her field who were considered more qualified than her.

This is mirrored in sport - anyone born male at birth obviously has an advantage so it’s unfair for them to be in women’s sport.

I do believe that women’s spaces should be protected. But I don’t think of everyone born male as an immediate threat. For example I don’t feel at risk of being sexually assaulted by a gay man. I don’t feel at risk of being racially abused by a black man and I don’t feel at risk of being hurt by a man who believes he has transitioned into a woman and has followed through with this by having surgery.

On a human level, there’s something I don’t like about labelling a whole demographic of people as a threat.

I agree with the PP about having a separate prison wing and tbh if it truly segregated from the general prison population then I don’t know how much difference it makes to anyone which prison it’s actually in.

Bollocks

The only way to be a woman is biological.

They can't have been living as a woman, be cause they're not women.

On a human level, there’s something I don’t like about labelling a whole demographic of people as a threat

They aren't being labelled as a threat however.

They are being labelled as MEN. Who don't belong in women's prisons.

Why is this so hard to understand?

Genuinely transgender people do believe they were born in the wrong body and even have noticeable differences in their brains from non transgender people of the same sex so there is clearly something causing the way they feel, it's not just made up.

For factual accuracy, this is not true.

Its a supposition based on a deeply flawed experiment that didn't control for even something as basic as sexual orientation.

There is no criteria for a 'genuinely transgender' person

"even have noticeable differences in their brains from non transgender people of the same sex"

Can you provide the evidence for this? Or is this something that you have read somewhere?

I have searched before for this information and found nothing that showed this at all.

Physically male brains are slightly different to female brains due to skull shape and size. This remains consistent regardless of transition status.

There IS evidence that hormones will make some changes to the brain, however, this is consistent with any person who is taking the very same exogenous hormone regime. To be clear, if a male person takes the exact same hormones for another purpose other than transition, this will be consistent with someone doing so for transition.

There IS evidence that repetitive actions and behaviours will create specific reactions in the brain. However, this also is consistent with anyone who is doing this particular action who does not have a transgender identity.

So, if you have evidence to the contrary, please post the links and I know that some people on this thread as well as me, will read it.

"You can't use the actions of criminals exploiting a system to prove that people cannot feel they are born in the wrong body."

Can you please explain in more detail how any person can be 'born in the wrong body'? Or if you don't think they can be materially born in the 'wrong body', can you explain why this particular group of people with a philosophical belief about their identity should be affirmed compared to another group of people with a particular belief about their body should not be affirmed and have special provisions made for them such as being put into a prison that affirms their philosophical belief?

Are you unable to give a fuck about anything that doesn't affect you?

@Bex5490 as you are black, do you think that someone painting themselves with brown paint and claiming to be black should be treated as a black person? Or do you find that grotesque and insulting? What about if they tattoo their whole body brown and truly believe they are black? There’s no going back from that mutilation.

What is the difference between that and a man making irreversible cosmetic changes to his body and claiming to now be a woman?

Theres no difference in my mind.

Right back at the men trying to access women's spaces.

@Cheesytoastie there is no evidence for what you're claiming.

however they are mutilated

what a horrible thing to say

When you need to consider the application of robust safeguarding however, society and policy maker have to 'label a whole demographic of people as a threat'.

This is truly the only way that robust safeguards will work. The 'case by case' scenario means that a sub group of that demographic should be exempt from those safeguarding principles. This historically has failed.

Male people have been excluded from female prisons based on a clearly identified set of criteria. Can you explain which of these criteria you might feel a male at any stage of transition should be used to exempt a sub-group of male people from that safeguarding decision?

I suspect you understand that there is the concept of legitimate discrimination. And for safeguarding purposes, it is legitimate to negatively discriminate against a 'whole demographic of people' such as 'all male people'.