To think that if a man has had bottom surgery they should be put in a woman’s prison?

[Bex5490]

Genuinely interested in this and not trying to goad just want to understand.

When people talk of the threat of a man in women’s spaces, I assume the danger is because of their penis.

So if that’s gone then should they be categorised as a woman?

I’m kind of of the opinion that if you’re willing to put that much effort in (as in penis removal) regardless of your chromosomes, I’m happy for you to be called a woman…is this wrong?

Oh sorry, I completely misread you. Same answer though. Most of them, definitely not. Only the post surgical exceptions.

Of course I do, as I said on my first reply to this thread. It doesn’t change how I perceive them though

Is it? So men actually get a say as to who goes in their prisons, but women dont?!

I’m not saying their rights should override women as a class. I accept they’d be sent to a male prison. But that wouldn’t stop me feeling heartbroken for them, knowing how they’ve lived their lives for years. I’m not asking anyone else to share that heartbreak.

I certainly wouldn't put women who identify as men in a male prison in any circumstances- the risk to their safety would be huge.

I never said that. There are many female voices saying that they don't want men in their prisons, for very good reason, that needs to be respected.

I don't know how men feel about women in theirs, but I doubt that's a very attractive choice for any woman, regardless of how they identify.

Do you have female friends who you'd be heartbroken for if they had to share a cell with a male? If you do, be honest, did they even cross your mind on reading this thread?

It's interesting to me how so many people default to sympathising with males over females.

Even though it would put them in danger?

It's interesting to me how so many people default to sympathising with males over females.

Me too. Speaks volumes.

Absolutely. The women's feelings are rarely even mentioned and if they are, it's usually to berate them for not deferring.

Yes. Not up to me to tell a stranger that they can't do something because it's dangerous. If I knew them then I would probably try to persuade them to accept a women's prison. But if they were adamant that they're a man and should have the right to be in a man's prison then I don't think it would be ok to allow the choice for biological men but not biological women.

Yup, who are the 22% who think a man's feelings and safety are more important than a woman's safety and dignity - and in prisons of all places.

Locking women up with men is a violation of human rights.

Why are some women so determined to prioritise men?

But I thought this whole thing was about safety, that these men would be in danger in a male prison? If that's not the case, what is it about?

Absolutely. That’s the contradiction in my thinking. I’ve only ever known both friends as post surgery transwomen and I didn’t know they were transwomen when I first met them. I don’t see them as males (but yes I know they are). I’d sympathise with them equally.

In fairness, it's a very easy contradiction to resolve. If transwomen require third spaces, then absolutely fine, but no one else should be compromised for decisions that they have taken about their lives.

I don't think there's really any contradiction in your thinking. Even a question asking you about women, you've made it all about the men. It's quite clear who your priority is.

It’s the contraction in my feelings I’m talking about. If my friend was imprisoned in a dedicated trans prison with some of the vile people referred to in this thread, I’d be heartbroken.

Im not sure what you mean ...

Would you be more heartbroken for your trans friend in a trans prison than a male friend in a male prison or a female friend in a female prison?

Oh, is it? I thought it was about trans people wanting to be in a prison of the sex they believe themselves to be - ie, they'd feel like they were a man/woman in a female/male prison.

I don't have any trans friends, true. I distrust deceptive men.
All irrelevant to your inability to centre women in a question about women.

The threat of sexual assault is not removed, though, @Viviennemary. Nor is the physical advantages (strength, size etc) that male puberty confers on men.

Womanhood is born, not worn, and male individuals should never be in a female jail.

But to clarify, I don’t think anyone is born in the wrong body but I do think that some people seem to believe this so vehemently that they are willing to mutilate their own bodies for it and live in a way that makes them a target for hostility.

I think there are two things going on here with this "hostility".

I don't think people who identify as trans should be persecuted or harmed, or told they can't wear what they want etc. (within the same rules of decency that apply to everyone else.) There is such a thing as actual transphobia/hatred and persecution of trans people which I don't condone at all.

However, pretending to be something you are not, and demanding that other people agree with you or be forced to pretend they do, is going to piss people off. It's human nature (for good reasons) to object to forced speech, lies and fakery. Society is built on a manageable level of mutual trust and the ability to call out deceit, danger and untruth. As a whole, world society says no to people pretending to be something they're not, because if we didn't things would fall apart, and how they feel about it doesn't really come into it - as with Rachel Dolezal, the guy who wanted to identify as a different age etc.

That is why IMO this modern trans phenomenon os causing so many problems and arguments. Not because people aren't generally tolerant of differences – they are. But because it's actually normal and reasonable to not like being lied to and forced to lie, and to feel uncomfortable about deceit and unfairness.

The way governments and institutions have embraced it is atypical and has been pulled off by deluding people that it's actually possible to be "born in the wrong body" or to really somehow "be" the opposite sex and that such people are poor victims and marginalised harmless souls - when it's really not and there is no evidence for that at all. And the bullying and "no debate" tactics and making out that you're a bigot if you have a problem with it. It's been extraordinarily effective, but it's gradually falling apart because reality has a way of persisting and eventually overcoming nonsense.

Well you’ll have to give proper rather than general examples. If a man commits sexual assault and then decides to identify as women because he’s too 💩 scared to go to man’s prison because he knows the consequences then no I don’t think he should be go in to women's prison. If they commit their crime as men they should be treated as such.
However if for example someone transitioned before they committed their crime and are being jailed for let’s say a white collar crime then absolutely they should be able to go to a women’s Prison.

So the decider on whether a man should be in a women's prison is exactly how bad his mental state is? The worse the better? You are willing to amputate (or turn inside out or whatever horror show is required) your penis? Excellent, that level of mental health is the perfect reason to lock you up with a sex that is physically weaker than you. Bloody hell. You also fail to take into account that a man who is this desperate to be a woman is likely to have a lot of resentment towards the REAL women you are locking him up with.

And how about the fact that the vast majority of women don't want men in their private spaces! FFS. How is it so hard to understand that a man's wants don't come first.