To think that if a man has had bottom surgery they should be put in a woman’s prison?

[Bex5490]

Genuinely interested in this and not trying to goad just want to understand.

When people talk of the threat of a man in women’s spaces, I assume the danger is because of their penis.

So if that’s gone then should they be categorised as a woman?

I’m kind of of the opinion that if you’re willing to put that much effort in (as in penis removal) regardless of your chromosomes, I’m happy for you to be called a woman…is this wrong?

I would have thought, as a reasonable person, you could have worked this one out for yourself. However, men who have lost their penis/don't have a penis have never been considered women. No thinking person, aware of the cultural and moral ramifications, would think such a man had become a woman. A man without a penis is a eunoch - still a man.

Naunet said 'transmen' meaning a female person not a male person

He is not a woman.

He is a man who has chopped a body part off and clearly has mental health issues.

He is still physically stronger. He still has hands. He still has a male brain. He still doesn't have lived female experience.

So no, HE shouldn't be in a woman's prison.

Of course not, don't be daft. This person is still a man. Removing body parts doesn't make you a woman.

I agree, I think once a transwoman has fully transitioned they should be allowed in female spaces. Same for transmen in male spaces. Until that point though? No.

Prisons are male & female spaces. Sex cannot be changed regardless of how much one pumps themselves full of life altering hormones & irreversible surgery.
Sex cannot be changed.

I’ve just got back from my son’s nativity play and trying to read through as much of this as possible.

But to clarify, I don’t think anyone is born in the wrong body but I do think that some people seem to believe this so vehemently that they are willing to mutilate their own bodies for it and live in a way that makes them a target for hostility.

I don’t think you can change your sex.

And I am tending to agree having read a lot of posts about the need for a trans wing.

I think it’s ridiculous that children are being encouraged to transition. My son (aged 5) said he wanted to be a girl the other day because his sister got more snacks than him. Completely illogical nonsense that I’d be insane to encourage.

But I do feel sorry for those who genuinely believe this about themselves and have to live like that.

For those insinuating that I’m stupid for asking - I’m a black woman - with a pretty extensive knowledge of race politics. And when someone who doesn’t have my knowledge asks a question, I don’t shut them down and make out that they should have dedicated the same time as I have to exploring matters of race.

I am genuinely interested and not rigid in thinking. I’m more than willing to have my mind changed.

But your two friends are not women and so any reasonable person would say that their 'rights' should not overide what is right for 'women as a class'. Special trans unit is the solution. Women have a right to privacy and dignity - this is why Elizabeth Fry fought for separate prisons for women - because when women share prisons with men women are abused.

But to clarify, I don’t think anyone is born in the wrong body but I do think that some people seem to believe this so vehemently that they are willing to mutilate their own bodies for it and live in a way that makes them a target for hostility.

I'm sure people like this exist and need help.

But that help shouldn't come at the expense of woman's safety and comfort, should it?

Off topic, but initially I thought you were suggesting that any men who had had bottom surgery should be jailed- which I thought was a bit harsh.

But, no. I think there needs to be a separate wing in a men's jail for them though.

Have you asked any TRA what they think of this OP, out of interest? Because you seem to be coming from a place of being fair and kind to TW. Yet what you're suggesting would be seen as deeply offensive. The thinking is that any man who would prefer to be a woman is a woman. That there are no hierarchies of womanliness based on extent of medical intervention, ability to pass etc, and to suggest such is transphobic. That anything less than full acknowledgement that a woman is whoever says they are, is unacceptable. And someone from outside the trans community imposing a gateway to womanhood based on their own criteria for acceptance would go down very badly indeed. So really it boils down to all TW in women's prisons, or none. Which would you rather?

Being a woman isn’t a prize you get based on how hard you’ve tried.

having a hysterectomy doesn’t make you a man.

victims of man on woman violence often aren’t slapped about the head with a penis.

men have no place in a women’s prison

There is a solution. The same as applies to rapists and men who abuse children: a separate unit. We'd probably only need one, attached to the male estate, for the whole UK.

I agree with you

How about a man who has lost his penis to cancer or in an accident, rather than by choice? Still women's prison for him?

I’m kind of of the opinion that if you’re willing to put that much effort in (as in penis removal) regardless of your chromosomes, I’m happy for you to be called a woman…is this wrong?

I can see your point @Bex5490 but ... and I certainly think that any man who wants us to try to see him as a woman should have the surgery. But about 80% don't.

However - what has happened over the last 8 or 9 years has been a tad exhausting. I've had my job threatened because of perfectly ordinary feminist views about women controlling who and what and how we define ourselves as women, and how women use perfectly ordinary straightforward language to describe our bodies and our experiences.

The upsurge of extremist gender ideology (transactivism) has tried to take women's own agency to define ourselves away from us, and to change the fundamental definition of what it is to be a woman.

This is mansplaining to the nth degree. Nothing about us without us, is my motto now.

So my view has hardened, and frankly, it's the transactivists who are responsible.

As Germaine Greer said about 15 years ago: "Women are not just men with their penises cut off." What that demonstrates is that these men still think of men as the default human, and women merely some sort of added extras who can be created by wigs, makeup, dresses, and high heels.

I imagine it would be empty - for the vast majority of these men it's access to women that they want, not other lying men.

Ok. Thank you for answering. I believe that we agree on much.

However, do you think that this belief and who then modify their bodies should be affirmed while any other identity belief that is not based on material reality is not affirmed by society?

I guess it also comes down to do you think that they should receive special treatment in anyway compared to other vulnerable male people?

My question was about transmen, but you seem to be talking about transwomen with your comment about living as a woman? To be clear, I'm asking about women who identify as men, would you put them in a men's prison?

I’m kind of of the opinion that if you’re willing to put that much effort in (as in penis removal) regardless of your chromosomes, I’m happy for you to be called a woman…is this wrong?

I can't understand this view. It's factually wrong for starters. It also positions being a woman as a 'not man'.

We are our own biological category. Not a reject box for problematic men.

Why would you put any female person into a male prison? Even if that female person has taken testosterone?

Did you know that the lowest 25% of males still have the strength that is higher than that of 90% of female people? Why should society place any female in such danger?

Whether men are happy to have women incarcerated with them is a question for men to answer.

However, the power dynamic is totally different and in reality, I believe the vast majority of these women would choose to be incarcerated with other women.

But I do feel sorry for those who genuinely believe this about themselves and have to live like that.

Of course. But women aren't therapy tools to have their rights, safeguards, equal opportunities and sex class eradicated just so that these people never have to confront the reality that they can never be women. Truth is that whatever they do, they will still be living like that, because everyone does know who the women are and demonstrates it in some way.

Women's prisons, sports etc are supposed to exist to safeguard women's safety, dignity and equality. As soon as you start saying that certain men should be allowed in because otherwise they'll be distressed, they cease to be safeguards and become mere validation tools for men. It no longer matters what happens to women within them because their purpose has ceased to be protecting women. They're just places to "prove" that men are women. And any human rights violations of women that occur within them don't mean women need spaces away from men because these men are women, else they wouldn't be there to start with, right? The circular reasoning is absurd but that's exactly how it works. And since women are no longer defined as a sex class, they can't establish spaces based on that.

Aren't you offended at the idea that you are just an incomplete man? You say you're black...do you know how often TRAs liken black women to men by saying letting in men is no different to letting in black women?

So, how do we tell?

I'd have disagreed with anything you said just for the use of "bottom surgery" to be honest.

Men are men. Chopping their dicks off don't change that.