To think that if a man has had bottom surgery they should be put in a woman’s prison?

[Bex5490]

Genuinely interested in this and not trying to goad just want to understand.

When people talk of the threat of a man in women’s spaces, I assume the danger is because of their penis.

So if that’s gone then should they be categorised as a woman?

I’m kind of of the opinion that if you’re willing to put that much effort in (as in penis removal) regardless of your chromosomes, I’m happy for you to be called a woman…is this wrong?

What would be the point in a compromise that pleases no one but male criminals without a penis? Women who don't want men in our spaces will not want this. TRA who tells us being a woman is nothing to do with whether a man has a penis or not will not want this. Its a situation where compromise means no one gets their way.

I agree with everything you’ve said. I am actively applying cognitive dissonance and am not activating to override women’s rights. If one of my friends was sent to a male prison, I wouldn’t complain, but I’d feel gutted for them, on a friendship level.

The difference between male and female prisoners is not simply genitalia. This report to parliament details what it means to be a woman in prison and the difference between the sexes
committees.parliament.uk/publications/23269/documents/169738/default/

I wasn’t aware I was making an argument. I was simply stating how I feel.

However can you imagine a trans woman who appears feminine and has had top and bottom surgery being placed in a man's prison?

Yes. They are male and they can go in a male prison.

Why should a male person who has done things to himself to try to imitate a woman be seen as more female than male? He's 100% male and always will be. He's also bloody rude, disrespectful and misogynistic.

If I did a really, really good impression of someone with cerebral palsy can I have disability benefit? If I dye my hair grey and walk with a stoop can I have my pension? No because I'm not what I'm pretending to be, and in these situations you can understand that. Trans is no different, it's just that there's been a massive campaign to make people think they are "bigots" or "unkind" or even worse, "right-wing" if they have any common sense and ability to see through this obvious ludicrousness.

Yes.

Generally women pose less of a threat to women than men. Even if they've got beards. There are still violent women, and there are still women that are stronger than others so you can never garuntee you will be safe in the women's changing room

For the millionth time it's about biological sex, not how they look

The point is, any one of us can indulge the thought experiment of whether we'd throw other people under the bus to shield someone we personally care about. Your feelings don't come into it. It's wrong for men to be placed in the women's estate, no matter how lovely you think they are.

You're not a feminist. A trans "identity" is not a DSD.

Completely agree. They probably played along to ‘be kind’ and to echo, conflict avoidance. Women (the ones with vaginas) can tell. We know when men are cosplaying at ‘being a woman’, whatever that means as no one can ever really explain what this means.

Now that these boundary pushing men and the TWAW cheerleaders are riding roughshod over women’s rights at unprecedented levels when it comes to spaces and sports to make a few, women have had enough. No more be kind.

I love this idea that we'd all be horrified to share a space with another woman who has gender dysphoria. And it's presented as some sort of gotcha. It tells you all about their own prejudices.

Should a tall, muscular,bearded transman be allowed to use female changing rooms? Because they will be a lot stronger than the average female. Biological females are capable of violence. Would said transman really be less threatening than a female presenting penis-less transwoman?

This is about prison, so sex would be known and the "muscular bearded trans man" is going to be known to be a woman.

If men were not allowed to be placed in women's prisons at all, anyone there would be obviously female and no one would be confused. Dangerous prisoners in their own estate will have to be managed appropriately, as now. Hope that helps.

Any views on Cost of living crisis?

Exactly - these people are still stronger and many of those in prison that identify as women are sex offenders. Any violent man is a danger. You can be seriously sexually assaulted with hands, with objects. Even if violence is not sexual a person who has been through male puberty is stronger and any fights or even pushing and shoving will make women more intimidated and worse off than if that behaviour was coming from another woman.

Women are not castrated men. Transwomen should be in in men's prisons, with arrangments for their safety there in the men's prison - seperate cell or wing, or similar.

For me it would depend on why they were in prison. If it was for violence against women - or anyone, really - or for a sexual crime, then no, I'd say they should be in a male prison. Of course they are male. However, if the person was a young man who'd had the operation prior to the offence and if the offence hadn't harmed anyone physically and if he had no history of ever hurting women, I'd be more inclined to put him in a female prison.

Paddy O'Gorman (paddyspodcast.ie) has done a series of podcasts on some of the issues relating to trans individuals being allowed in to their preferred spaces. He interviewed one woman who was living in a hostel who spoke of a fellow resident who "dressed like a woman but punched like a man". So-called bottom surgery doesn't remove the physiological advantages conferred by male puberty. These advantages put women at a distinct disadvantage in any altercation with a male, regardless of whether said male has a penis or not.

More than 70% of transwomen in prison are in for sex offences. Higher than the rest of the male prison population:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/02/24/government-figures-70-per-cent-of-transgender-prisoners-are/

Of course there is a solution. Provision is made in a men’s prison for them. Trans wing, segregation, whatever, I really DGAF. This is not a women’s problem to solve.

Why?

What about other non-violent young men? Or non-violent old men?

Thanks, Whattery, this is really clear and well stated. I’m going to borrow your examples.

I don’t understand why anyone thinks Rachel Dolezal was wrong to pretend to be black (and get a job intended for a black person), but men have every right to pretend to be women and take advantage of that.

So prisons should be mixed sex, segregated based only on the crime and the prisoner's self image?

I don’t understand why anyone thinks Rachel Dolezal was wrong to pretend to be black (and get a job intended for a black person), but men have every right to pretend to be women and take advantage of that.

This is something I haven't seen discussed enough. Does anyone actually support her for saying she's black?

As for The Black and White Minstrels being criticised but Ru Paul's Drag Race being on TV...

Falling for what? That some people have different opinions? I just don't agree that someone who has had surgery should still be treated as a man (or as a woman if the other way around). I agree with you that they still are biologically as they can't change their chromosones. That's really not a controversial opinion at all.

I totally agree with you except in the very rare cases where there has been a full, surgical transition. In my opinion, that completely changes things. In yours it does not. That's the only difference between us.

The Butleresque myth that sex is an engineered linguistic construction that expands beyond the remit of biology. Utter, utter hairy bollocks.