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AIBU?

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Original poster

Would you report this to the police?

247 replies

RockOrAHardplace · 08/12/2024 00:22

I am Executor of a Will for elderly person who recently died. Unknown to me, there had been an LPA in place for finances as elderly person was in a dementia care home. Once the elderly person passed the LPA was no longer valid and it all fell to me as executor.

Transpires the person entrusted with the LPA robbed her blind and didn't pay any of her bills despite taking the money from the account. Nor did they register the LPA with the elderly persons bank. LPA was also taken out 2 years after elderly person had lost her mental capacity and was in a dementia care home. According to bank statements, whilst in dementia care home, which she never left, said elderly woman was buying designer clothes at Urban Outfitters, eating meals at nice restaurants, attending concerts and buying petrol for her car (elderly person never drove) and was having supermarket food deliveries delivered to a house 60 miles away where the holder of the LPA lived in a fully catered secure dementia care home..

Tried reporting to the Office of Public Guardian as the LPA should never have been allowed but as the elderly person is dead, their powers have lapsed.

Person who had the LPA entrusted cannot account for the whereabouts of the money, we are talking enough to buy a small house. There wasn't even any money to bury the person person in the estate (but before you ask the money came from elsewhere and she had a lovely funeral).

Would it be reasonable to report it to the Police or unreasonable to do so?

OP posts:
Jessica60 · 09/12/2024 21:24

Report it to the local authority where the care home was. They can go to this person to retrieve the care home fees.

Aintgointogoa · 09/12/2024 21:32

What a dreadful story. This person is scum of the earth and doesn't deserve a shred of consideration. Good for you to advocate for her now even though she has passed....because they have committed an immoral and illegal fraud.
I listened to The Willpower Detectives on R4 this morning, in depth investigation to LPA scams which are so widespread and vile, preying on such vulnerable people. Check it out. You may even be able to ask the team for some tips ! Good luck x

CoraPirbright · 09/12/2024 22:28

I would also report the ‘witness’ as they are party to this fraud.

Original poster
RockOrAHardplace · 09/12/2024 22:29

whiskeytangofox · 09/12/2024 17:37

Re: GDPR

I’d query that a bit further with the LA because normally information relating to a deceased person does not constitute personal data and therefore is not subject to the UK GDPR.

Plus in addition, the Access to Health Records Act 1990 gives a right of access to health records of the deceased to either the personal representatives or to the persons who may have a claim arising out of the death of the individual.

Show quote history

That's really helpful, thanks. The GP has given me information but social services will not.

With the LA, although the account is in regard to a deceased person now, the family member they communicated with re the debt, is not, and perhaps that is the GDPR element they are referring to. Its not like I don't know the address they were going to!

OP posts:
Original poster
RockOrAHardplace · 09/12/2024 22:33

Pompeyssy · 08/12/2024 12:48

OP, think about going to the media about this issue.
You have done so much leg work for them it could be of huge interest.
This is such a huge issue with so many families too embarrassed that one of tgeir own would do it.

It has happened in the family of a friend of mine. Her BIL was withdrawing thousands from his mothers account.
He has been completely shunned by they entire family who were devastated but they don't want to go to the police.
Too ashamed to publicise it.

Whilst the Police are potentially involved I cannot but once it is over I certainly will. I appealed to my MP to support me on the issue but got no support whatsoever and this is bigger than my family, this is about all the vulnerable people who are open to financial abuse because of the online LPA system where you don't even have to have a GP or lawyer ascertaining the mental capacity. I am all for making things accessible and inexpensive but not at the expense of the vulnerable.

OP posts:
Original poster
RockOrAHardplace · 09/12/2024 22:37

Barney16 · 09/12/2024 19:12

Something quite similar happened in a wider family context, not my family if you understand what I mean and it didn't get reported to the police. The consensus was it would cause a lot of trouble. I found that very strange.

So I have reported this now and then I told the family and was frankly shocked at the polar opposite view of some. I don't think I will be winning any popularity contests anytime soon.

I have committed now, both the Police and LA appreciated my detective work. I just need to sit back and let the Police review everything. This could be very slow moving though.

OP posts:
Original poster
RockOrAHardplace · 09/12/2024 22:39

Coastgirl22 · 09/12/2024 19:24

Action Fraud is the national crime agency website for reporting this type of crime - you can report as an advocate

Hi, I rang the Police and yes they told me to use action fraud. I am the Executor and the one left holding the baby as it were. So its under the deceased persons name, with me acting on their behalf as you say.

OP posts:
Autofilia · 09/12/2024 22:43

My husband and I were just talking about people who take advantage of, or more accurately, prey on the elderly being the lowest of the low. I was listening to R4 today about abuser of poa. Despicable. Report.

Original poster
RockOrAHardplace · 09/12/2024 22:45

JAT49 · 09/12/2024 21:09

Seriously why would you have to think twice. Fuck that it’s family this is an old person who was fucking robbed. Tell me the details and j will report. See does that make your thinking better. You will be one horrible cow if you allow this to go unnoticed. My god give your head a wobble

Back off - no need for that attitude, have you read what I have written!

I haven't been holding, except over the weekend. I have been investigating this and getting all the proof I can about what has happened and where the evidence leads so I can make a justifiable report to the Police that actually gives them the information to see that there is something significantly wrong here.

There is no money in the estate and I am spending my own money to try and prove a fact that may blow my family apart. I have to deal with the consequences of this and as there is no money for lawyers etc and I don't do this properly I may also end up incurring legal bills that I will have to pay unless I am bang on with what I am saying.

Nor was I tipping the family member off as to my suspicions before I extracted the info I needed.

OP posts:
Barney16 · 09/12/2024 22:48

RockOrAHardplace · 09/12/2024 22:37

So I have reported this now and then I told the family and was frankly shocked at the polar opposite view of some. I don't think I will be winning any popularity contests anytime soon.

I have committed now, both the Police and LA appreciated my detective work. I just need to sit back and let the Police review everything. This could be very slow moving though.

Show quote history

In a way I'm not surprised some people didn't agree with you because in the situation I described virtually everyone just wanted the matter dropped. It was very much oh there's nothing to be gained by making a fuss. I found that ridiculous but wasn't able to do anything about it. I think you have definitely done the right thing. Fingers crossed the police take some action.

Original poster
RockOrAHardplace · 09/12/2024 22:48

Ohnonotmeagain · 09/12/2024 21:17

unfortunately once an LPA is revoked or the donor dies, it is no longer within the remit of the OPG and they do not have the power to investigate.

one more loophole to ensure these people can get away with it.

these cases unfortunately are unlikely to meet the threshold of proof the CPS requires. Yet another loophole.

ours was quite clearly coercive control and financial abuse. Yet they won’t be charged because the victim isn’t here to be assessed for competency or state whether they gave permission.

I even raised it with the bank ombudsman as imo they should have noticed an elderly person not using their bank cards for over 2 years, and all their money being transferred to one person. But again, apparently there is no proof it wasn’t done by agreement.

in another case the bank actually do hold proof of a crime, but won’t investigate or report to the police as the deceased’s executor is the only one who can raise a complaint/they will provide the bank statements to. Guess who’s the one committing the fraud….

it’s honestly a shit show.

Show quote history

Crikey, that doesn't give me much hope....but I have reported it, so let us see what happens.

I am so sorry you are going through this, its very frustrating and counter intuitive isn't it. Everyone can see exactly who has done what, but won't do anything about it!

OP posts:
Pompeyssy · 09/12/2024 22:53

I too think the family element is particularly abhorrent.

I know with my friends husbands family they absolutely couldn't believe it of him.
As his mother died in her 90's it was going on for the 5+ years that she was in a nursing home.

Her husband is devastated by it and it compounded the loss of his mother.
They are a lovely family but wouldn't want such a vulgar business associated with them or their later mother.

I think this goes on a lot more than people think.
Money and the thought of getting it easily corrupts some people.
But for family to do it is a terrible betrayal.

Original poster
RockOrAHardplace · 09/12/2024 22:58

Ohnonotmeagain · 09/12/2024 20:54

Apparently there’s no obligation for a witness to an LPA to confirm they even know what they’re signing.

it’s simply a witness to the form being signed. No more no less.

Show quote history

Sorry that's not quite right. This is something I have learnt during my investigations.

The Donor (the person giving powers to someone else if they are unable to act for themselves) appoints someone to act on their behalf (the Attorney) and then there needs to be a certificate provider.

A Certificate Provider must:

  • not be related to the donor or attorney(s)
  • be aged 18 or over
  • have known the donor well for at least two years
  • not be classed as an employee of the donor or attorney(s)
They sign the LPA after the donor and the donor’s witness. Their role is to make sure the donor can understand independently what they are signing and is not being forced into doing it. Ideally a certificate provider will speak to the donor separately and privately before signing and witnessing the document. The certificate provider could also be a professional - someone with the skills to know if the donor is able to make the decision to make an LPA. For example:
  • a registered healthcare professional, such as the donor’s GP
  • a solicitor, barrister or advocate
  • a registered social worker
  • an independent mental capacity advocate
In this case it was the Attorneys old school friend!
OP posts:
Original poster
RockOrAHardplace · 09/12/2024 23:00

Jessica60 · 09/12/2024 21:24

Report it to the local authority where the care home was. They can go to this person to retrieve the care home fees.

Hi, as I mentioned earlier, I have already done this and they are very interested in the evidence I have, but it has to go to the Police first.

So if the Police don't progress it, the LA may. I am also raising a complaint with the financial ombudsman re the banks inactivity when the spending habits swiftly and significantly changed.

OP posts:
Original poster
RockOrAHardplace · 09/12/2024 23:01

Aintgointogoa · 09/12/2024 21:32

What a dreadful story. This person is scum of the earth and doesn't deserve a shred of consideration. Good for you to advocate for her now even though she has passed....because they have committed an immoral and illegal fraud.
I listened to The Willpower Detectives on R4 this morning, in depth investigation to LPA scams which are so widespread and vile, preying on such vulnerable people. Check it out. You may even be able to ask the team for some tips ! Good luck x

Thanks, interesting idea, I had no idea about this!

OP posts:
Original poster
RockOrAHardplace · 09/12/2024 23:04

Ohnonotmeagain · 09/12/2024 20:23

Similar situation here, except the LPA holder simply transferred all the donor’s money to their own bank account.

opg can’t do anything as the LPA lapses after death.

i did report to the police but as the donor is now deceased I can’t prove it was done without her agreement so they can’t/won’t prosecute a criminal case.

so they get away with it .

Its just unbelievable isn't it! And they say crime doesn't pay!

OP posts:
Original poster
RockOrAHardplace · 09/12/2024 23:17

mickey54 · 09/12/2024 18:06

@RockOrAHardplace id be interested to see if police are interested. In my situation my step mother robbed my dads bank of thousands it’ all went through the opg they gave her the all clear but it transpired after he died the things that she has told the opg the money had gone on was simply not true and she paid allegedly for his funeral twice she conned the OPG like my dad. She left my dad virtually penniless. I think in part she got away with it drawing large sums out because she was his wife but it’s obvious what she was doing. Now we are executors to his will and wd can’t do probate as she refuses to say where the money has gone. I would have liked of reported her to the police but did not think they would take any notice ? Good luck

Edited

In my case, a lot of money went missing before the family member got the LPA, but they had the bank card and pin. Unfortunately I would have to prove that the elderly person did not give permission for her to spend her money as if it were her own.

However then the LPA was created, so the family member has a legal responsibility to act in the donors best interests, which includes keeping records of how the monies were spent, receipts etc and clearly hasn't and cannot account for where the monies went. This is the bit they think they can act on.

If she had an LPA, and will not account for the money, and you can prove she lied to the OPG - report it to action fraud, but before you do, get all the info you can. PM me if you need to.

You have options and it appears to me that it depends how it was done that makes the difference.

OP posts:
PorridgeEater · 09/12/2024 23:19

Nana4 · 08/12/2024 01:58

You really must report this or at least get it on record that you have tried to.
As the executor you also have a legal duty, not reporting could leave you wide open to accusations yourself.

This is right.
If you do not report it you could be seen as colluding in dishonest behaviour. The person who made you doubt this may mean well but they are wrong.

JAT49 · 09/12/2024 23:20

So pleased you have done the right thing and believe me I know it wasn’t easy for you, as I have read all your replies now can only say pat yourself on the back. One brave lady.

PowerVandhana1986 · 09/12/2024 23:22

Of how I am being harrassed.

HappyMe6 · 09/12/2024 23:23

I wouldn’t think twice on reporting this. Why do you even need to ask

schtompy · 09/12/2024 23:32

RockOrAHardplace · 08/12/2024 00:31

What channel is that please, would be interested to watch it. My inclination is to report it but surprised at the reaction of the one family member I talked to about it. They were that adamant I shouldn't report it, even though the substantial evidence I have is pretty damning as the person is family and could ruin them!

Show quote history

They've done a pretty good job of ruining for themselves. I'd have no hesitation in reporting this.

Wingedharpy · 09/12/2024 23:48

Another loophole that requires attention, IMHO, regarding POA, is the fact that only 1 person can access an on-line bank account in 1 person's name.
Consequently, even if you have named 2 attorneys to act for you, only 1 of them will be able to access your on-line account.
This means early suspicion of dodgy dealings goes un-noticed until either a bill doesn't get paid or, as in your case OP, the donor dies and the executor discovers something's amiss.
I think this needs addressing particularly these days when families don't always live nearby and are trying to manage things from a distance.

Ohnonotmeagain · 10/12/2024 00:07

Wingedharpy · 09/12/2024 23:48

Another loophole that requires attention, IMHO, regarding POA, is the fact that only 1 person can access an on-line bank account in 1 person's name.
Consequently, even if you have named 2 attorneys to act for you, only 1 of them will be able to access your on-line account.
This means early suspicion of dodgy dealings goes un-noticed until either a bill doesn't get paid or, as in your case OP, the donor dies and the executor discovers something's amiss.
I think this needs addressing particularly these days when families don't always live nearby and are trying to manage things from a distance.

And if the POA is also the executor, you’re stuffed. Only they can access bank statements so even if you’re a beneficiary you have to accept their accounts, unless you have ££££££££ to risk on lawyers and court.

Ohnobackagain · 10/12/2024 00:18

It’s rotten isn’t it @RockOrAHardplace since seeing your post have seen one big case in the news and there’s one of those fraud programs on telly now on a similar subject. Sickening. They’ve just done a woman for taking over £350k!