Would you report this to the police?

[RockOrAHardplace]

I am Executor of a Will for elderly person who recently died. Unknown to me, there had been an LPA in place for finances as elderly person was in a dementia care home. Once the elderly person passed the LPA was no longer valid and it all fell to me as executor.

Transpires the person entrusted with the LPA robbed her blind and didn't pay any of her bills despite taking the money from the account. Nor did they register the LPA with the elderly persons bank. LPA was also taken out 2 years after elderly person had lost her mental capacity and was in a dementia care home. According to bank statements, whilst in dementia care home, which she never left, said elderly woman was buying designer clothes at Urban Outfitters, eating meals at nice restaurants, attending concerts and buying petrol for her car (elderly person never drove) and was having supermarket food deliveries delivered to a house 60 miles away where the holder of the LPA lived in a fully catered secure dementia care home..

Tried reporting to the Office of Public Guardian as the LPA should never have been allowed but as the elderly person is dead, their powers have lapsed.

Person who had the LPA entrusted cannot account for the whereabouts of the money, we are talking enough to buy a small house. There wasn't even any money to bury the person person in the estate (but before you ask the money came from elsewhere and she had a lovely funeral).

Would it be reasonable to report it to the Police or unreasonable to do so?

Reporting to the police is 100000% the right thing to do.

Family member is dishonest and a thief and took the money quite knowingly.

A literally criminal lack of morals and ethics in a staggering way trumps any kind of family loyalty owed, by millions.

even with this post coming after my first response, as the executor you have a legal and moral obligation to report the fraud

You have to be the executor and do your duty.

When MIL died, the two sisters took their duties so seriously that there was a small falling out between the siblings , its taken time to heal but now everyone agrees they were just following the letter of the law so to speak, doing their duties. They had to step back from being friends and family because they were charged with dealing with the estate and doing their best for the estate

And I can assure you, if they had found a single penny not accounted for, questions would have been asked

I agree with others, you should definitely report this to the police. I don’t even really think of what they’ve done as fraud, to me it’s theft. I worked in care for 30 years, you’d be shocked at how often people do this sort of thing if they think they can get away with it.

You would think so wouldn't you but no. The witness to the LPA being drawn up has to be either a legal or medical person, or someone who has known the Donor (elderly person) for more than 2 years. The witness was the thieving family members buddy and it was signed when elderly relative had been in dementia care home for two years.

I was aware said person was looking after finances (but not through an LPA) and had no reason to think they would do this. However said family member would not accept elderly person had dementia until after elderly person had an accident and the hospital declared the elderly person had lost their mental capacity. I knew about this and assumed it had been left too late to get the LPA, it was only after death I found out that two years later the LPA had been created and no-one advised.

The Wills were written many years ago and at the time the elderly person was diagnosed with dementia, I was battling serious illness myself - thankfully I recovered.

Anyone who defrauds an elderly vulnerable person deserves to be ‘ruined’. This is a serious fraud and this person needs to be dealt with. I would report it, no matter how close a family member it was. What’s more, as the executor of the estate, you have an obligation to report any potential fraud. Do not hesitate.

Please report it, that person knowingly robbed a vulnerable person.

Any proof you have keep it in a safe place with copies if possible in case other family members take or destroy it.

It wouldn't matter to me who had done this - I would report it if my own brother had stolen from someone like this. As executor, I think you have a legal duty to try to recover any money owing to the estate and as a decent human being you have a moral duty to report this.

We had a similar situation involving my SIL family. A family member spent about £20k of their Mums money. Sympathetic though the police were nothing happened.

Her defence when asked was that her Mum had given her permission to take money & wanted her to treat herself & her family. While we & the police knew that it was absolutely not the case they couldn't prove any criminality

I hope she felt it was worth it because her siblings went NC with her

Run that by me again .."the Wills (plural) were written many years ago and at the time the elderly person was diagnosed with dementia"
The Will was written when the person had dementia already? There was someone else's Will involved because it's plural. You were ill (sorry to hear that) but are recovered now. I think this is a much more complicated story than has been disclosed. I worked in banking for 40 years. I've (sadly) seen many disputes over deceased people's money. This looks like a family dispute. I'll say no more

This isn't taking £10 out a purse (which is bad enough) this is "enough to buy a small house" which sounds as if it has left the estate with serious debts to pay. Why are you even doubting reporting them? They will do it again.

So sorry, I know how upsetting this is now! I have never really seen eye to eye with this family member but never dreamt they were capable of this.

There are care home fees outstanding, which they can't chase the estate for, but they could chase the LPA holder for if they can prove misuse of funds and deliberate deprivation of monies. But they will do nothing unless I report it to the Police first. And that is exactly what I was going to do, report it, if I hit the same scenario as you, I would then go to the local authority to assist them in reclaiming the care home fees.

Apparently the Police have a higher burden of proof, then a civil matter so just because the Police don't charge, doesn't mean a civil case can't be won by the local authority.

100% report, if nothing else it will demonstrate to your other family members that you are taking being executor seriously and not on the take yourself.

If they have taken the money and they get charged for fraud then thats their problem.

You bet your arse I would!

Do you have a copy of the LPA?, if so who is the “ Certificate provider”
This is the person who signs to say the “donor” (the elderly person) fully understands what they are doing and has the capacity to make the LPA.
That might give you a clue as to who else is involved or has been coerced into it. Take a look at .gov making a LPA website. There is a list of who can or cannot sign as it has to be someone independent and not related to the donor.
My mother had dementia and no way would the doctor sign to say she had capacity.

Sorry, the Wills were Mirror Wills (Elderly person and their Spouse) many years ago and I was named as Executor in both.

Move forward many later years, the spouse had died and elderly person was living on their own, many miles away from me (I have my own Mum living with me) but myself and others had been concerned for a long while elderly person had dementia and that LPA's were needed. Elderly person would not have it that she had issues so would not put LPA's in place.

Elderly person had a fall and ended up in hospital and whilst in hospital, she was declared as having lost her mental capacity and was not capable of living on her own. She was moved to a dementia care home and was very erratic. I was seriously ill at the time.. As far as I was concerned, the opportunity to make any LPAs was gone so it never crossed my mind again. That is until I found otherwise 4 years later when she died.

Two years after elderly person had lost her mental capacity and was placed in a dementia care home, a financial LPA was created and signed by elderly person, family member and family members buddy as a witness. they did not opt to advise anyone. We had no reason to think there was an LPA but I was aware said family member was supporting her as was only fitting given their nearer familial connection. I am related by marriage and not a blood relative, unlike the family member and elderly person.

Sorry, I don't mean to be cryptic just trying not to be too outing.

Definitely report and don’t have any qualms about it , i can't imagine why the other relative thinks they should get away with it .

Unfortunately as executor I think you have a duty to report it. Being an executor is a legal responsibility. It's awkward as they are family, but i don't think you should be concerned about the family member. If you don't report it and it comes to light later that would be an issue. Do you really want it hanging over your head? Pass it to the police and wash your hands of it.

The most recent episode of 24 Hours in Police Custody on Channel 4 was on a similar issue, with a woman abusing the LPA she had for an uncle, to the tune of £200,000, a lot of which she spent on drugs. Shockingly I don’t think she even went to prison, just because she gave up the names of the dealers.

Report for sure. If you're the executor, you have a duty to destribute the funds as guided. You should at least let authorites try to recoup some so that they can go to the heirs.

My opinion is that the family member made that decision themselves, when they did what they did.

Completely agree.
This isn't a case of someone - say, using the person's car once they gave up driving, and justifying it to themselves as they were doing a lot of running around on their behalf. You said the theft adds up to the cost of a small house, and has been regular and plenty of separate cash withdrawals over time. It is theft, and I would have no doubts about reporting it.
I wouldn't have doubts morally if I knew about it, but as an executor, then I presume you also have a legal duty.

Something similar happened in our family. We're in Australia so no doubt the laws differ.

It's elder abuse (which carries criminal charges here, would imagine that's the case in the UK?) as well as fraud.

Family or not, I think you've at least a moral if not legal duty to report it. Whether or not the cops do anything about it isn't up to you, but you should at least log it with them.

In our case, the person who did this wasn't charged. However we reported her son to the tax office for illegal cash dealing.

Sorry you're going through this but hold your nerve. You know this person has done wrong. Best of luck.

Yes I would report family member or not. The elderly person had a will and that dictated who was to get the estate, that now won’t happen due to this family member, who seems to have lived the high life

report

@RockOrAHardplace Definitely report it but don't expect much to happen. I don't want to be all doom and gloom but 12 years ago we discovered that the carer of a very close elderly friend had been stealing from her over a period of a year. It was so awful and heart breaking because she had considered the carer to be her friend when in fact she had stolen approximately 35k off her. The police were not remotely interested in investigating it and believed the carer's story who said they had been "gifted" the money. So much money was taken that friend was depleted of the remainder of her life savings and could not afford to stay in privately paid sheltered accommodation and had to move into a home.
Carer had been using elderly friends bank card to buy groceries for her but then basically misusing it for personal shopping - £600 Christmas food shop and various other food shops, £3k on a new sofa from a store an hour away that friend had never heard of or been to, taking money out of the ATM for herself (elderly friend was 97 and didn't know what an ATM was), getting her to sign cheques for 10k for each of the carers kids, stealing cash that she had hidden in her house. And I think worst of all the carer had her round to theirs on Christmas day because they "were friends" but actually she was charging her quadruple time and making her sign random extortionate cheques for "caring" for her. She had also convinced her to change her will not that there was anything left by then end because the carer bled her dry. It was appalling. To this day I am still so angry that it happened, that the police were completely useless and that that awful woman was allowed to get away with it and still works as a carer.

Yes, as Executor, once I discovered post death, that there was a financial LPA, I requested one from the OPG which they provided. The LPA was created online (elderly person was never IT literate and had no wifi in care home), two years after she was placed in the care home, having lost her mental capacity. It appears the donor (elderly person), nominated the family member and the person who witnessed the signatures and confirmed elderly person was of sound mind to sign it, was family members school friend.

Like you, I thought it had to be a legal or medical person but apparently not. The system is so open to abuse and I had no idea.

The elderly persons GP records clearly show that two years prior to the LPA being signed, the elderly person had been classified as having lost her mental capacity and there are notes on those records to say that this family member was advised of the findings and had been consulted by the GP and hospital about care for said elderly person. Their joint decision was to place her in a secure dementia care home. There are many pieces of official evidence that prove said family member was fully aware elderly person had lost her mental capacity to create an LPA, two years before it was created.

Therefore, post death when I found out about the LPA, I went to the OPG to query how an LPA can be created two years after someone is placed in a dementia care home. They said it shouldn't have, but one the donor (elderly person) has passed, they no longer have any authority in the matter. Their powers only exist whilst the donor is alive.

Please bear in mind here that I am not a blood relative and had no reason to suspect any financial wrong doing and certainly wouldn't have had any rights to see bank statements and check bills were being paid if I had. What I could and would have done, is report it to the OPG whilst elderly lady was still alive for them to investigate. However I did not see elderly person and the family member for a long time as I was seriously ill myself.

Its unbelievable isn't it!