Would you report this to the police?

[RockOrAHardplace]

I am Executor of a Will for elderly person who recently died. Unknown to me, there had been an LPA in place for finances as elderly person was in a dementia care home. Once the elderly person passed the LPA was no longer valid and it all fell to me as executor.

Transpires the person entrusted with the LPA robbed her blind and didn't pay any of her bills despite taking the money from the account. Nor did they register the LPA with the elderly persons bank. LPA was also taken out 2 years after elderly person had lost her mental capacity and was in a dementia care home. According to bank statements, whilst in dementia care home, which she never left, said elderly woman was buying designer clothes at Urban Outfitters, eating meals at nice restaurants, attending concerts and buying petrol for her car (elderly person never drove) and was having supermarket food deliveries delivered to a house 60 miles away where the holder of the LPA lived in a fully catered secure dementia care home..

Tried reporting to the Office of Public Guardian as the LPA should never have been allowed but as the elderly person is dead, their powers have lapsed.

Person who had the LPA entrusted cannot account for the whereabouts of the money, we are talking enough to buy a small house. There wasn't even any money to bury the person person in the estate (but before you ask the money came from elsewhere and she had a lovely funeral).

Would it be reasonable to report it to the Police or unreasonable to do so?

@RockOrAHardplace nobody but the guilty family member has damaged the family’s reputation. Blooming tea leaf!

By not reporting this you are colluding with the fraudulent activities and could be implicated- who’s to say that they don’t turn around and say they gave you the cash as well as you are executor? Nip in bud and report.

You should report. However if you remain unsure you could seek legal advice; which would most likely cover your duties as an executor. You will then be in a more informed position of how to proceed.

My father discovered his elderly relative had had all his money taken by his female friend/carer (they claimed the relative was paying her by the hour, despite being mathematically impossible). We're talking £100k+. Relative died. Police weren't interested. My dad took the risk and took a civil case against her, he won. The friend/carer only had their house, no money left, so a charge was put on it, so the money would be reclaimed if they sold it within 5 (I think?) years; if not the sale would be forced at the end of the time period. The latter happened and my dad got the money plus a load of interest that had accrued. It cost a loads to take the case, and it was a risk, and it was very stressful doing it, but as it was a civil case he got the proceeds. It sounds as though you have more damning evidence than he did.

There is an element of this also...until, as you say, you see what was going on with the finances. It would appear elderly person was isolated by family member and so had to rely on them. Its quite common apparently.

I just don't get it - why, how can people be so despicable - I know money is tight for pretty much everyone, but when you see the fragility of a human life, now vulnerable and know that their welbeing is in your hands, how on earth can you behave so despicably - how - seriously I am holding my head in my hands over what this OP is going through - the hurt and worry must be so horrid - take care OP and know that while you might not meet us in person there are many who uphold what you are doing x

That is very interesting indeed, no body mentioned the 5yr limit to me, that is a game changer if the Police don't run with it. Thank you!

Really good for you OP for doing the right thing by your relative. I am full of admiration for you especially facing down criticism. Keep your resolve. You are in the right. Good luck with it. 💐

Then they shouldn't have abused their position and stolen a shit load of money. They knew what they were doing. The ruin is of their own making.

The person with LPA has committed a crime and must be held to account for their actions. If they face ruin/shame/embarrassment because of it, it’s entirely their own fault! There could be redress with the bank to lodge a fraud investigation and recover monies if you can show that the account holder was unable to give permission for her relative to use her funds that way, especially as no LPA lodged with the bank.

You say they didn’t pay bills, so if they still need to be settled - recovering the funds is essential. Hope the bank will offer reimbursement and the greedy relative gets their comeuppance.

Great that you are taking this on OP - if people like you use refuse to gloss this over it will help for this behaviour which is extraordinarily common to become recognised as what it is: financial abuse.

I see that the witness was an old school friend - did they also have one of the relevant professional qualifications? Did they lie on the form/state something about which they could not have known the truth? Did your relative have mental capacity when they signed and what reason could this person have had for stating that they did? (Let’s remember that the family member who did this likely had their own motives for denying this person had lost capacity at the time). In any case, did the witness have any knowledge of the person to enable them to make a judgement? If they signed and mentioned their professional role and they are a registered professional (e.g. solicitor and the SRA) then report them to their registration body. If they said your relative had mental capacity purely because your family member told them they did, then that’s very serious because the whole point of a witness is to protect people without sufficient capacity.

We watched it and nodded along all the way through.

it doesn’t help when there are threads here- there’s one where the o/p has been found guilty of stealing from her employer. The replies are almost exclusively supportive, a couple have described her as “an amazing human being”

makes reporting to the police even tougher because even if they are found guilty these fraudsters can turn it around and make themselves look like the good guy somehow.

i don’t think our family will ever forgive us, even if the police do take it to court and it is clear what she did. We’re the bad guys still getting her convicted when she was only trying to help an elderly relative.

I tried to follow this up, as the witness was a good long term friend of the attorney.

lawyers said there’s no obligation for a witness to establish competency, it’s simply a witness that the donor signed the forms.

in our case the donor was competent, but the abuser would just make her sign things and she’d do it because this person controlled her life and she had no access to any money to even buy herself food without this person.

i’m not even sure the witness (or the donor for that matter) knew what they were signing, it was done in a bulk of forms for things like bank/ss/dwp etc and pretty sure it would have been a case of can you do the witness signatures as she signs.

I think it depends where you are as from this thread, I gather it seems to be different in Scotland from England where I am. In England, there are 4 different roles on the LPA. This is in my wording, not the official bumf.

The Donor - (so in my case the elderly person who lost mental capacity)

The Attorney (not to be confused with a lawyer) - Attorneys are the people you pick to make the financial decisions for you. They don’t need legal training. They should be people you trust and know well; for example, your husband, wife, partner, adult children or good friends. In this case it was a family member.

The Certifier - You need someone to confirm that no one is forcing the Donor to make an LPA and that the Donor understands what they are doing. This is the ‘certificate provider’. They must either:
• have relevant professional skills, such as a doctor or lawyer
• have known you well for at least two years, such as a friend or colleague - in this LPA for my Elderly relative, it was the family members (the Attorneys) old school friend, so elderly person would have met them when they were a school child and on perhaps one occasion since in the last 50 years.

The Witness(s), simply witness the signatures of the above being made and have no other part in it otherwise.

The Donor can also opt to let people know that they're going to register your LPA. The people notified can raise any concerns they have about the LPA – for example, if there was any pressure or fraud in making it. This option was not select on this particular LPA, as you don't want to alert people to your wrong doings do you!

I’ll have to check again then as it was in England, forms downloaded from the internet, signed by donor, attorney and witness, and sent off to be registered.

far too easy imo. Not one person questioned competency or even if the donor agreed.

And that is the point, you just download them from the internet, the donor is supposed to ask someone to witness they are of sound mind (the certificate giver) and they can name people they want to know about the impending LPA before control is given to the Attorney.

Its the certificate provider who confirms the competency of the donor and that they are not being coerced. You can also chose to have people notified, so perhaps if you have three siblings and you appoint 1 as Attorney, you can request that the others are officially told of your wishes and they can raise objections if they wish.

Its a system that is very easily open to manipulation. Isolate the proposed donor so they have no-one but you and they will sign out of fear of losing you or as someone suggested earlier, hand them a pile of stuff to sign and hide it amongst them.

The online link to the forms can be found here📧https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/66042b7ce8c442001122037b/LPA-for-financial-decisions-make-and-register-complete-pack.zip

Used properly, it's a great idea and I understand they have gone online to make it easier and less expensive but it's also more susceptible to fraud. Sadly they are talking about going the same way with Wills.

Ok. You’ve frightened me now. My sister and I have joint POA for our Dad (Mum deceased). He’s in a care home and we bought him new clothes, toiletries, fixed the house up with a handyman etc. But we haven’t kept all the receipts. We can justify all the outgoings but now I’m scared that we don’t have the written evidence. Am I over-reacting?

Hallo Frosted Misletoe, don't worry - if you paid by card (any sort - you will have created a digital trail which you can account for). In future though keep exact records - when I did this for my father - I refused the LPA bank card - paid from my card, kept receipts and records and then claimed back from his account. It was a little more convoluted but ensured a decent trail and accountability. When my father passed I just handed over the file that I had kept to the solicitor. This was about a year ago and nothing was quibbled so I am assuming that everything I did was OK. The only thing that went direct from my father's account was the care home fees - and now release the stress : )

Don 't worry about the past, start now and document stuff. Genuine mistakes happen. People buying toiletries, clothes are not the ones causing trouble The Government website says-

Attorneys under a Power of Attorney in England must account for how they spend money on behalf of the donor. They are legally required to keep clear and accurate records of all financial transactions and decisions they make. This includes keeping receipts, bank statements, and any other relevant documents.
Attorneys must act in the best interests of the donor and can be held accountable if they misuse or mismanage the donor's funds. If there are concerns about how an attorney is managing the donor's affairs, it can be reported to the Office of the Public Guardian (OPG), which oversees attorneys and deputies.

The Attorney for my family member drew every single last penny out of the bank account every time the pension went in, went overdrawn, did not maintain the house and left all the bills unpaid. The money being withdrawn from the bank, was for such things but clearly wasn't used for it, which also devalued the house and they have a legal responsibility to be able to account for their actions and must always act in the best interests of the Donor. I'd like to say this is an extreme case, but I am beginning to understand its quite common.

I think I helped confuse things by referring to the certifier as the witness but in any case you are clear that, the old school friend acted as the certifier. If they have relevant professional certification, I would report them to the relevant registration body. If they were claiming to know the donor well enough to certify they had capacity to make a POA and they lied I wonder if there is any recourse?

Sadly not, any powers the OPG had died with the elderly person.

I know this sounds harsh, but I feel if you don’t report it to the police then you are complicit in the actions of the other family member. I feel it would only be right and fair to report it and allow the care home to try and recover the fees. I’m so sorry this has happened to you but I think you have a duty to take the moral and ethical high ground here and probably a legal duty as well. I wish you all the best.