Reform and abortion

[Craftymam]

Just a public service announcement as I missed this last week and find it quite shocking that coverage was so low.

Nigel Farage has said he wants to ‘open a new discussion’ on abortion rights.

Considering everything that’s gone on in America, the rise in popularity of reform and this alleged 100 Million donation from Elon musk; I felt I had to bring this to everyone’s attention.

Which polls? There are some bogus ones run by pro-lifers which suggest that, but most do not.

E,g.Yougov 2023 poll suggests that only about 25% of people believe the current 24 week limit is too late. That's not close to a majority.

And who cares?

Unless the debate is going to be about explaining to people why bringing it down is plain nonsense - given that the 20 week scan, in reality, typically happens around weeks 20-22 and it's only then that conditions which lead to later abortions are picked up.

Just been googling for polls on the subject, and a good number appear to be connected to pro-life organisations.

There's a great episode of Yes, Minister that shows how polls and research can get you the answers you want by clever questioning.

No they won't.

You don't have a good opinion of women do you.

Where are you getting that from

Just looked up and that’s not what I am seeing at all.

This is where I have been looking…
https://yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/47568-where-does-the-british-public-stand-on-abortion-in-2023

It is surprising the gender and age differences here.

If anyone has any links for the actual categorised abortion data I would like to have a look. I am assuming it’s low and when we say choice I am assuming it’s mainly very sad circumstance ‘choice’ of young, or abused or mentally unwell women. Which I’m sorry to hear some posters have been though 💐

Since euthanasia has been approved for adults, it wouldn't surprise me if mission creep does mean that after those who have no capacity now, but did say something once upon a time are next, followed by those who 'surely would want it if they had known how they would be in ten years' and then eventually for those - including infants - who have had no capacity from birth. After all, if a foetus has no consciousness (a position I have no objection to), a newborn with a similar level of awareness, ie, none, is intellectually no different.

The posters in the Euthanasia threads did include the cost to the NHS and care home fees as arguments in favour of allowing it - and the cost of maintaining life in terribly disabled and unwell infants is also very high.

After all, if somebody argues that a foetus must have the same rights of personhood as an adult from the moment of conception or from a flickering proto-organ, if the adult can have its life ended, it seems logical that the infant should be able to be euthanised irrespective of levels of consciousness. And if the potential future suffering of a foetus once it is born means that termination of pregnancy is acceptable and an adult can have their life ended, why should those in the space between birth and adulthood be deprived of that?

FWIW, I think it will take some time to extend that far. But I do think it will happen. It's happened before and it will happen again.

I'm not being in the slightest bit flippant - both sides' arguments can lead quite logically to that eventuality and no amount of either saying it can't possibly happen can change that.

I have realistic opinion either good or bad. I know they are good and bad women. Same with men

There's a great episode of Yes, Minister that shows how polls and research can get you the answers you want by clever questioning

I think of it every time someone insists "the polls say...", @MistressoftheDarkSide, and here it is again:

Ah thank you - have yet to figure out sharing YouTube videos to here on my phone lol

One thing I struggle with is those who look at abortion in isolation and don’t also consider the impact of adoption, going into care and living in poverty on a child.

People seem to have this notion that women are callously having abortions at 23 weeks and 6 days without considering the other variables - and medical reasons for abortion. Abortion covers a whole host of healthcare it is not just about killing an unwanted fetus.

I actually had a delivery driver (my weekly shop, was a surreal experience) tell me he was glad abortion was banned and Trump was back in - he said killing healthy full term was wrong. That’s the issue - how we are framing abortion in the media and the narrative being pedalled. It’s just not realistic.

I am someone who had an ectopic pregnancy and it’s frightening to think in the USA I might have just had to die and leave my other children behind, in favour of a much wanted, but not viable pregnancy.

The 24 week limit doesn't apply in those cases. Reducing the limit to 22 weeks (or anything) will have zero effect on women who find out their child has disabilities or will be born very ill. The limit for those situations is birth.

I agree with you.

i support the current stance on abortion for TFMR up until whenever doctors are happen to consent on that one - which seems to be beyond 24 weeks. So in my mind we keep that protected.

termination for NON medical reasons I think does need to be reviewed. Inconvenient or lifestyle incompatibility pregnancies shouldn’t be happening after perhaps 20 weeks in my eyes.

Never understand how people talk of banning abortion as if it's that simple...... Unintended consequences, hello?...

You'd just ban safe abortions, trained staff, hospital settings. Dread to think how many women worldwide still die from backstreet abortions.

Guess they want a return to the days of a hot bath, bottle of gin & a coat hanger. And 'weekends away' for those who could access services elsewhere. Not for nothing in 1980s Ireland was there talk of 'taking the boat'.

No, we have seen what's happening in the US and we don't want that here. Right wingers removing women's right to choose. Farage is right up Trump's backside and no doubt wants to turn the UK into the US, no NHS, no abortions, no employment protections etc. Well him and his debate can fuck right off.

To this I would add: the US without any of its attractive features... so without the space, natural resources and autonomy that they have through their sheer size.
No, we wouldn't turn into the US... only a colder version of Puerto Rico.

But the majority of women (and people in general) are incorrect - viability at 22 weeks has not changed. The only difference is that there is a greater drive towards life preserving measures at this gestational age, so more interventions are being given. And even so, 70% of those babies die, and a majority of those who survive do so with disabilities, many of them major.

The problem is that unless you read deeply, you don't get the facts and the science. You just get the emotive rhetoric from both sides.

UK abortion laws work very well and should not be changed, except to remove the requirement for two doctors. One should always be enough.

It would just be medical pills sent by mail, which is its own problem. But it won’t look like it did in the past and birth control is better than in those days.

I say that as a pro-choicer

Ectopic pregnancies are treated in the USA. Let’s not spread this kind of misinformation, that could actually kill people in and of itself, just to make some political point

Yeah okay. You keep believing what you want to believe. You have obviously made your mind up and will refuse to believe anything that doesn’t align with your beliefs

https://msmagazine.com/2024/11/04/women-die-abortion-ban-elections-vote/

I draw your attention to the last story in this list.

And the others. Direct cause and effect.

Right wingers want a change to abortion laws! Right wingers GAF what is happening in the US?
If you want to believe that Reform voters want this then you are free to form that opinion. It doesn’t mean you are correct

Would it be fair to say some Reform voters would support this in the interests of the party cause though? Would it be considered worthwhile collateral damage in order to support the wider aims of the party?

Your posts have been reasoned and balanced, but if it came down to it and abortion reform became part of the manifesto, would it influence your overall vote?

Not trying to pick a fight by the way, genuinely interested.

I do think it's dangerous to minimise the influence of some US fundamentalists on those trying to get a foothold in UK politics.

No it wouldn’t. Reform voters on the whole would probably think you’re a mad woman for even thinking that because something is happening in the US it’s inevitable it will happen here.
There are bigger threats to the UK and abortion laws. This topic is certainly not on their radar.

No we don’t want it over here. To think that anyone voting Reform wants to see US influence in the UK is just wrong.
No religious bullshit would be on a Reform voters mind.

They’re not if there’s still a fetal heartbeat. Or if they’re not able to identify the location of the pregnancy - so they can’t treat with methotrexate.

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/aug/13/texas-abortion-ectopic-pregnancy-investigation

apnews.com/article/pregnant-women-emergency-room-ectopic-er-edd66276d2f6c412c988051b618fb8f9