Reform and abortion

[Craftymam]

Just a public service announcement as I missed this last week and find it quite shocking that coverage was so low.

Nigel Farage has said he wants to ‘open a new discussion’ on abortion rights.

Considering everything that’s gone on in America, the rise in popularity of reform and this alleged 100 Million donation from Elon musk; I felt I had to bring this to everyone’s attention.

Now that's a whole other can of worms...😆

Surely the difference is taking the first breath. Before birth, a fetus is wholly reliant on another’s body to sustain it, once it’s taken its first breath it’s a child with their own rights.

I was perturbed!

Why is infanticide any worse though?

I said it "might" be and that would be because an abortion done by a medical professional might be less worse than being killed by brand new mother.

What about a baby that has breathing difficulties at birth and is intubated immediately? Until it can take unassisted breaths should the dr's be allowed to inject it's heart to kill it? Is it ok if it takes 3 breaths at birth before intubation?

Don't you see it's a rather arbitrary distinction in a part viability baby/fetus?

That's a fair point.
I don't know though, the injection into the heart method isn't allowed for death penalty cases and no country uses it for animal (or human) euthanasia as far as I'm aware, so I doubt it's pain free. Perhaps less so than being smothered or whatever, I don't know.

But I'd probably rather take my chances that not all women who would be prepared to have a late term abortion because they don't want the baby, would go on to kill the baby at birth if denied, and so give myself a chance at life.

I'm not denying that late term abortions can't be the more merciful option for the baby btw, especially where they are going to fact a short painful life.

It's a very difficult and sad subject.

I do, but there is still a distinction. I’m not denning its not complex. If someone doesn’t want to be pregnant, abortion should be a choice open to them. Nobody is seriously going to suggest delivering preterm to end the pregnancy so abortion is a solution. It’s not pleasant to think about but nether is the idea of being pregnant against your will.

It is my personal opinion that women will usually make the best choice for themselves and their baby, whatever that may be. Thankfully incidences of late term abortion, feticide and infanticide are so rare that I don't think their discussion is worth further jeopardising our existing rights. But I do personally believe as early as possible and as late as necessary.

The "abortion at term" of "healthy viable babies" purely for alleged "convenience" of the mother argument is an emotive red herring in the context of the issue of potential pushback against the pretty reasonable laws we currently have.

It doesn't happen in the UK. It's covered by the Act in question, and the number of late abortions is in single figures for medical reasons according to statistics.

Going down this route is the emotive pro-life trap which seeks to make essentially theoretical babies victims of Lilith....and women to be painted as callous murderers on a whim. Those women may exist, but currently abortion laws don't enable them and women's rights to safe reproductive autonomy should be protected.

It is a hangover of Biblical prejudice - women should be chaste, yet men can't help themselves, and in some ideologies women should humbly bear the brunt of rape and sexual oppression.

The focus should be on the status quo and preserving it, as it has served us well for decades. Women should have the right to protect themselves from the negative health and societal consequences of unwanted pregnancy.

Until all the issues are addressed that put women in the position of wanting or needing abortion safe and legal access is a requirement. Just yelling "keep your legs shut or be shamed" isn't terribly enlightened in the 21st century.

Why bot? If a woman that's 30w gestation wants to end the pregnancy, fair enough, end the pregnancy, but taking specific action to ensure the viable baby comes out dead seems perverse.

Either way the pregnancy ends and the woman gives birth. I'm not sure how women's autonomy gives her the right to decide whether it should live or die?

Just coming back on

"It doesn't happen in the UK. It's covered by the Act in question, and the number of late abortions is in single figures for medical reasons according to statistics"

Your statistics are wrong I'm afraid.
2021 it was 276, 2022 it was 260 for example.

And what happens to the baby? 10 weeks of incubator care without the love of parents or family? Foster care? An unknown future with regards to development in relation to prematurity? Such babies are difficult for social worker to place in potential adoptive families.

But a baby born at 30 weeks would still need approximately a month of NICU intervention to survive, which is far from a "natural" process. What gives the doctors any more of a right than the mother to decide if that fetus lives or dies?

Things I’ve taken from this thread.
Abortion rights should be protected at all costs.
The gestational viability has changed since the act was passed.
The two child limit has pushed abortion limits up.
I don’t think anyone wants to change the rights of women when it comes to abortion.
People still hate Reform.
People are worried about America’s influence over UK policy.
I think we can safely say that women in the UK have no appetite for abortion rule changes.
Let’s remember this if it is ever debated in Parliament. We stand as one and whether you agree or disagree, the law as it stands seems to work for the majority.

It is not always so binary as living = good, dying = bad is it? Being born is so far from a guarantee of a happy healthy life, particularly for women and babies facing these difficult choices.

I've been trying to find numbers for abortions carried out in the final month of pregnancy because of the turn of the conversation to the risk of "abortion virtuallyat birth" which is where the hand wringing comes from, but can't find a specific figure. Your figures are for pregnancies post 24 weeks, but there isn't a breakdown further than that I can find. I'm addressing a specific point.

"The law as it stands" - these debates in parliament aim to change the law as it stands. Don't be so naïve to assume the changes will stop at your personal point of comfort. Be careful what you wish for.

There are no impending debates on abortion laws. Save your passion for when there is.
I am not naive, just old and been through it.

Debate was your word. And also, we don't "stand as one". That's fundamentally not how democracy works. Being old doesn't make you knowledgeable.

Abortion rights aren't on the table for amendment in the UK at the moment because no party has yet put them on the table.

Farage's comment that abortion rights are worthy of 'debate' is the first step to putting them on the table and making them an election issue. It could quite easily happen with regard to the death penalty too.

Unfortunately the debate carried out on social media lacks the nuance required for these types of policy decisions but is capable of influencing an election. It's so depressing.

People who terminate later than ten weeks generally do so because of a medical reason. Often these are not found until the 20 week scan. 24 weeks gives people four weeks to make an impossible decision which often feels quite rushed.

Okay @Fluufer You seem to want to argue. Why? Do we not stand as one as women?
Would we not stand as one if this ever does come to parliament?
I never said I was knowledgeable, merely been there done that.
Do you have some sort of issue with me and my words?

We fundamentally do not, and cannot "stand as one". That is not how democracy or opinions work.

That's what someone suggested on a previous thread - may even have been the same poster - except it was phrased as "within a few days of birth"