Reform and abortion

[Craftymam]

Just a public service announcement as I missed this last week and find it quite shocking that coverage was so low.

Nigel Farage has said he wants to ‘open a new discussion’ on abortion rights.

Considering everything that’s gone on in America, the rise in popularity of reform and this alleged 100 Million donation from Elon musk; I felt I had to bring this to everyone’s attention.

I'm reading the thread and whilst there are posters who are giving considered and thoughtful opinions there is also a lot of anger and hatred of NF etc al being expressed, this is how they will win. I understand but it will not help win the argument.

We can be angry that women have to fight this battle again or we can plan to win.

We need the facts, they are on our side.

Abortion until term without a medical reason is not a popular idea, anyone arguing for that will alienate most people. Don't make people choose between reduced abortion access and abortion until term. We will lose.

There is no case for altering existing provision by reducing terms or access because as OP points out, most terminations happen at less than 10 weeks.

The viability argument for reducing limits to 22 weeks doesn't stand up to scrutiny. I'm reluctant to post the statistics about survival rates and severe, life long disabilities in babies born before 24 weeks but at some point we will have to overcome any squeamishness about appearing insensitive so that sensible, fact based discussions can take place.

We need to be prepared to address claims about late term abortions being permitted for things such a cleft palate, I have heard this argument. Anti choice campaigners claim that the medical necessity provisions allow women to abort babies who have minor, correctable birth defects as late as the third trimester. In the UK the number of late term abortions which take place each year is in single digits. Those abortions may include babies with correctable birth defects but the important point is that the abortions don't take place for that reason. Those defects often occur with much more severe and unsurvivable problems and that is why a woman may abort later in the pregnancy.

I could write a lot more but this is just an example of the kind of evidence we need. There are many more very legitimate arguments for maintaining abortion access as it is, we need to be prepared.

I bet you any money that if Nigel or Donald got a woman pregnant that they weren’t married to, it would be a completely different issue with regard to the sanctity of life and they would happily pay for an abortion.

I’d be willing to bet any money Donald Trump has already done this probably more than once!

Babies can usually live at 24 weeks. I think it's too late. If a woman wants an abortion plenty of time to get it done in first 16 weeks unless exceptional circumstances.

He has never been in favor of abortion bans to the consternation of the pro-life wing of the party

@Fluufer I’m still totally unsure of what rights you are referring to so yes, it would have required an answer.
For the record, I admire your stance on women’s rights and the desire to not have those rights eroded. It’s a good thing that people have these opinions and I would do not want to suppress your opinion.
A debate/discussion should allow all views and fair play for fighting for your beliefs.
I think we can agree to disagree.

Exactly. Abortion even for unwanted child is not easy for women at least they can make sure they babies not develop enough to have nervous system and feel the pain

Nothing is wrong with it. It's sensible now babies can be born at 22 weeks and survive. He's asked for a discussion.

Well, we both have different views then.

Eugenics / pronatalism promotes the view that some lives are worthier than others, and that society / politics should dictate which those are.

No woman should be forced to carry a baby, nor forced to terminate a pregnancy. This is about reproductive autonomy and the well-being of individual women, not playing into whichever lucrative zeitgeist is getting the best Instagram hits.

The majority of 2nd trimester abortion are for medical reasons. Abnormalities are often discovered in the 20 week scan. That only leaves a few weeks for further investigation & decision making. I’ve no idea how early the 20 week scan can be done accurately?

You really can't think of any situation where I women could make a reasonable, informed and balanced decision to abort later on pregnancy?

I'll try a scenario out. Intelligent professional young women enjoying life and partying, takes good precautions with a progesterone implant and has the usual kind of side effects (bit of irregular bleeding cramping, bloating), but unfortunately contraception fails she ends up pregnant, she doesn't realise she's pregnant (has a bit of cramping, bloating and spotting but this is normal for her) and by the time she does she heading into the third trimester. She knows that she has partied hard and consumed a lot of alcohol throughout the time she was pregnant but unaware, and maybe a few other substances (sniff sniff). She's is intelligent and aware enough to understand the full implications of fetal drug and alcohol syndrome across the lifetime of her potential child and the implications for her own future, she also knows that this condition is not diagnosable prenatally. So on balance she would opt for a late abortion despite how distressing it will be.

Hardly a psychopath!

I'd feel the same about them as I feel about women who want a "discussion" about universal suffrage.

Regardless of political affiliation I would say that the majority of women would be against the idea of making abortion outright illegal.
I had an abortion aged 12, it was a later abortion because, well I was being abused and too scared to say anything.
I personally feel that sometimes late abortion is there for anyone who is going through what I went through or if there is something medically wrong. I’m sure the baby was healthy but it was done for my wellbeing. Being 12 in the 80’s negated what you wanted and I had no say. I honestly don’t know if that’s still the case.
I would like to think that women will always have the right to choose.
Should there ever be a time this appears to change, I hope we will all unite as women of all shapes and sizes.

How often this scenario will become true once in 10 years? The truth is if we get abortion rights until the birth no matter risk pregnacy or healthy pregnancy there will be many women aborting healthy babies in late stage pregnancy I mean pregnancy when baby have change to survive if they born prematurely

You said the majority of people are against imposing such restrictions on women’s rights.
I assumed you are referring to the abortion rights under discussion. In which case it is factual to state that most women already have such restrictions imposed upon them

Mmm, to be honest, I personally believe the restrictions are there for a reason.
You are however entitled to believe it’s not.

I'm not arguing for no restrictions. I'm saying we don't need further restrictions.

I imagine this scenario and other equally reasonable ones will be more likely than the scenario you imagine of women enduring 8 months of pregnancy and all the symptoms and lasting physical damage that go with it only to decide to abort the baby on a psychopathic whim.

I trust women.

I know ❤️

"should be available at any point during pregnancy up to the birth."

You cannot be serious.

A baby fully capable of surviving and thriving outside the womb deserves to be treated as though it is a human with rights.

How is having an abortion right up until birth any different than smothering a baby once it has taken its first breath?

Is that breath your line of where someone suddenly becomes a human with rights?

What you are suggesting is sickening.

And what is it that you’d feel about them?

Perhaps fewer babies would be smothered at birth were their mothers allowed to access later abortions? Nobody likes to think about it, but infanticide happens. Sometimes late term abortion might be lesser of two evils so to say.

Huh?

Odious really is the right word for him. What a little creep.

It’s not infanticide. It’s feticide. It’s very different. If a woman doesn’t want to be pregnant for any reason, she should have the right to access safe and legal abortion. As early as possible as late as necessary.

I thought that said Oedipus.