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Colleague has complained about me using wrong pronouns

847 replies

CandyCane103 · 06/12/2024 09:23

Name changed but have been on mn for a fair while now.

I work in a role which requires me to do casework supporting vulnerable people. I am supporting a member of staff with some cases that fall under my specialism. We've always got along well and I've really enjoyed working with her. I've been here a number of years, she is 6 months in. One of her cases is a non binary person, and she emails me occasionally for advice as it is a long and complex case (has been ongoing for months now since before she joined the team). I usually get it right but have occasionally written 'she' by accident. They have a female name and I am not intentionally using 'she', it just naturally happens. Instead of speaking to me about it, she has made a complaint to my line manager, who has had a word. Line manager was fine about it and it wasn't a telling off. More of a passing on a message.

Now feels very awkward and think my line managers advice to her was that she should speak to me in the first instance. I really want to raise with my colleague that she should have spoken to me instead of running straight to my line manager. Not sure how to handle this as I've never had a complaint from a member of staff and it has ruffled my feathers.

Would you just leave it be?

OP posts:
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9
ForcedPronounsIsBullying · 07/12/2024 12:07

@Shessweetbutapsycho People make mistakes. No one has been harmed. An apology should be accepted so everyone can move on now.

@RedToothBrush it feels like collective gaslighting when we are forced to call someone by their preferred gender. I have experienced abuse and gaslighting so I don't use that term lightly

DowntonFlabbie · 07/12/2024 12:11

It wasn't a mistake and no apology is needed.

TheKeatingFive · 07/12/2024 12:21

One thing that no one has ever explained to me. If gender identity is so important - what is it that 'transwomen' and women all have in common that no non-trans-identifying man shares?

Because I can't think of anything that would make that a useful category.

Let alone something so important that it trumps sex.

Any thoughts?

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 07/12/2024 12:25

TheKeatingFive · 07/12/2024 12:21

One thing that no one has ever explained to me. If gender identity is so important - what is it that 'transwomen' and women all have in common that no non-trans-identifying man shares?

Because I can't think of anything that would make that a useful category.

Let alone something so important that it trumps sex.

Any thoughts?

There is nothing.

Every time I have this conversation with a true believer, they end up saying that there is nothing all women have in common.

So what is the point of this category then?

Why do we need a word for a group of people with nothing in common but not one for all people who share the same biological sex?

Trumptonagain · 07/12/2024 12:27

we are a charity who only support women

This thread...

Yes I know times change but I can't get my head round you working at a place that's a safe haven for women/girls/females and someone's cribbing about your use of the word she.

Cheesytoastie · 07/12/2024 12:29

Like when you copied @SerenePeachs words calling her uneducated in her rantings? 😂

The bullying on this thread is off the scale how is anyone supposed to have a reasonable debate when five or six angry posters immediately pile on them calling them all sorts of horrible names?

No wonder the thread is starting to look like swiss cheese.

TheKeatingFive · 07/12/2024 12:31

Why do we need a word for a group of people with nothing in common but not one for all people who share the same biological sex?

This is the logical disconnect at the heart of it all.

I mean, people can have any 'gender identity' they choose, but men who want to be women are not the same as actual women. No matter what criteria we're working with.

TheKeatingFive · 07/12/2024 12:33

how is anyone supposed to have a reasonable debate

If you answered any of the questions posed, that would be a great start.

Do you want to begin with the ones on this page?

RedToothBrush · 07/12/2024 12:58

Shessweetbutapsycho · 07/12/2024 00:16

I think you have misunderstood me greatly in all the heat/passion of your own views…
im not dismissive of evidence at all, I’m actually unaware of the healthcare report you’re referring to, but I’d be keen to read it if you can reference it for me?
im very receptive to understanding more, but I find sharing views is much more productive with less aggression

Repeatedly on this thread people who have said that it is not kind to refuse just go along with pronouns.

When explanations are given, it STILL results in women being called hateful and bigoted.

Even when they have given examples of why and how it is harming women and that it is fundamentally a mens rights movement.

You aren't interested in listening. You've demonstrated that.

And used mental health slurs. And I'm angry that women are being told they MUST go against their self interest here, to be kind to others when this isn't remotely kind to them and harms them in multiple ways.

If you really wish to go and understand why gender neutral is problematic, go and buy yourself a copy of Invisible Women and read the Cass Review about why Hilary Cass states that the act of using pronouns is not a neutral act and should not just be done in schools as a default response.

I'd also like you to reflect on identity formation and how the identity of those immediately in the orbit is someone identifying as non binary or trans is disrupted. We KNOW that any disruption to identity can be harmful - so why is it dismissed when a family member comes out saying they are changing their gender? That in itself is probably an indicator of trauma or something other problem, which has a fair chance of also having an impact on closest family members too.

Simply having a polite conversation about 'how many brothers and sisters do you have?' immediately becomes fraught with difficulty. Having a lived experience of having a sister and then having someone change their gender disrupts how you relate to others. When some asks you in polite conversation about birth order or siblings they are looking for shared experiences. If you had a sister who now says they are a brother or they are non binary, it closes the ability to have normal polite simple conversations down, without them turning into difficult and complex conversations involving politics which perhaps you don't want in a passing conversation with a stranger at a wedding. It puts you on a back foot as you have no idea of the politics of the other person and how they will react. So it's often easier to dodge the situation. Lying is equally problematic because you don't have that lived experience and you have to then tell more and more lies that don't reflect your life.

And theres other relationships this affects - as a parent, a partner or a child.

If you want to go away and come back and discuss this in future, I'm open to it, but honestly telling me I'm not allowed to be angry about how it's all being so dismissed and using incorrect sex pronouns is framed as 'being kind' just pisses me off at this point.

There's no excuse for the mental health slur thrown at those who have had to deal with this AND the massive taboo of being unable to say how much this is harming so many women.

For a women's charity of some description to be engaging and forcing others to go along with this without thought is frankly reprehensible in my honest opinion. It goes against the interests of women and it fails to identify the underlying causes and vulnerable of these women. In failing to recognise this they can no help get to the core of those problems.

Invisible Women: the Sunday Times number one bestseller exposing the gender bias women face every day: Amazon.co.uk: Perez, Caroline Criado: 9781784706289: Books

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https://www.amazon.co.uk/Invisible-Women-Exposing-World-Designed/dp/1784706280/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?crid=1EGYBGV97SBXZ&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.VEGZPnXaMgXDkci1YXmByg15gvS8w5888Kv5WGlyWwelIg2xFoCVL-XG8-YrsaIWiCmi6DNOd_i3Og4RnBSwaDGnqLdxGcvtfyJZkNDKL7wv1j8EKx4P23gNRNDkYbTi30lJXiDGXfeb2bG7zy75up-sRsnEMr_xH4dohBIrxyMwmvds-wNGG1OzlbCrg9j-cV4x-5aJKUBQAqijVOZ0Fg.xLmzMId-8XwbmliIlgAPsfESlwSMLztzZ-NR6diXrlc&dib_tag=se&keywords=invisible%20women&nsdOptOutParam=true&qid=1733575254&sprefix=invis%2Caps%2C81&sr=8-1&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-am-i-being-unreasonable-5224859-colleague-has-complained-about-me-using-wrong-pronouns

Cheesytoastie · 07/12/2024 13:13

TheKeatingFive · 07/12/2024 12:33

how is anyone supposed to have a reasonable debate

If you answered any of the questions posed, that would be a great start.

Do you want to begin with the ones on this page?

I don't fancy getting into a ruckus with angry women insulting me no.

That's exactly what has happened every time someone has answered any of the questions posed by the attack squad here.

The vitriol has chased away anyone who disagrees with you and shut down the conversation, well done!

Trumptonagain · 07/12/2024 13:15

For a women's charity of some description to be engaging and forcing others to go along with this without thought is frankly reprehensible in my honest opinion. It goes against the interests of women and it fails to identify the underlying causes and vulnerable of these women. In failing to recognise this they can no help get to the core of those problems.

Bit off topic but who knows, could follow suit.

How many charities be it for humans or animals, have lost out on donations where people have no longer supported them due to their having to follow the 'let's be politically correct polices'.

I'm not saying a person's preference should be ignored but when people think they're supporting a charity designated to helping women they rightly expect the funds/donations to be doing just that,.... it's yet another slippery slope in terms related to the use of the word women/woman being phased out.

TheKeatingFive · 07/12/2024 13:15

Cheesytoastie · 07/12/2024 13:13

I don't fancy getting into a ruckus with angry women insulting me no.

That's exactly what has happened every time someone has answered any of the questions posed by the attack squad here.

The vitriol has chased away anyone who disagrees with you and shut down the conversation, well done!

That's a very defensive way of saying you can't answer any of them 🤷‍♀️

Cheesytoastie · 07/12/2024 13:16

TheKeatingFive · 07/12/2024 13:15

That's a very defensive way of saying you can't answer any of them 🤷‍♀️

A very childish way of trying to goad someone to argue with you when they have stated that they don't want to waste their Saturday in a slanging match 👍

TheKeatingFive · 07/12/2024 13:19

It is always notable that those who come to tick people off for 'bullying' don't tend to say that opinions like mine are wrong.

They try to silence by monitoring people's tone.

TheKeatingFive · 07/12/2024 13:19

Cheesytoastie · 07/12/2024 13:16

A very childish way of trying to goad someone to argue with you when they have stated that they don't want to waste their Saturday in a slanging match 👍

Look either stand up your position or we come to our conclusions.

Your choice.

Fabulouslyunfabulous · 07/12/2024 13:24

If you know that someone is confused about biology it’s easy enough to just use they/them without supporting their delusional beliefs.

I would rather write they/ them than he/him when describing someone called Tallulah.

RedToothBrush · 07/12/2024 13:34

Cheesytoastie · 07/12/2024 13:13

I don't fancy getting into a ruckus with angry women insulting me no.

That's exactly what has happened every time someone has answered any of the questions posed by the attack squad here.

The vitriol has chased away anyone who disagrees with you and shut down the conversation, well done!

No one will engage with the inconvenient truths and I'm all out of giving fucks about being overly polite about it at this point because that approach got precisely no where.

We are now in the midst of a full on backlash that people like me have warned about for years because people refused to engage with the inconvenient truths.

Now we just get the label of 'bullying' when the attempts to silence through the process of intimidation and active use of the law to try and criminalise any woman saying 'this is harming me / us' in a calm and rational way.

I'm so over it. We were not the ones who had a mantra of 'no debate'. We didn't seem to have people merely trying to say 'hmm it's a bit more complicated than that and sex continues to exist regardless anyway'.

Yet we are always framed as the bad guys no matter how we try and make the point that sex doesn't cease to exist because you want it to and this has implications.

The simple phrase: "can't see sex, can't see sexism" sums up the problem.

Instinctively we see and identify sex. Why? There are always reasons for instinct. Why do we say that sex is important in some parts of the world, but gender rules in the 'more civilised areas'? Or is this actually just another form of racism to justify modern sexism in the west?

Why did society develop in the way it has? Why do we think we can overturn the concept of sex with the space of half a generation? Is that not some kind of monumental arrogance? Or does it seek to ignore the huge number of problems it creates?

The tone police have had their time and we said no to them. That ship sailed.

Now you have to have this conversation when you aren't driving the narrative. You could have brought people along with you by engaging but the desire was to railroad and alienate at every single opportunity and now there is this puzzled bafflement about why when the shit has hit the fan because you can only maintain a lie for so long before it starts to collapse in on itself versus material reality.

History tells us this. Every time some tries this, it can only run for a certain length of time.

Again this was warned against and people have seen it coming for a long time.

Why were people who said 'this is causing harm' ignored for so long? Why were only those saying certain things listened to?

We are the Cassandras. You ignore use at your own risk.

RedToothBrush · 07/12/2024 13:35

The gender identity flag waivers are finding themselves being held to account and it's not pretty.

Cheesytoastie · 07/12/2024 13:37

@TheKeatingFive I do believe your opinions are wrong.

I also believe you're not interested in having your mind changed, along with the other handful of posters that are on every single pronoun thread spouting the same opinions and sharing the pronouns are rohypnol thing over and over again. Hence I won't be having a multi day argument with you like other posters have wasted their time doing.

There are many undecided people who don't care about this either way or are undecided and are watching these debates. The way the anti pronoun brigade behave was enough to sway me from not bothered to believing in inclusivity because of the way the "gender critical" as they call themselves behave and I don't want to be associated with those people, I want to live in an inclusive society where nobody is ostracized or despised the way non binary people are here. The lack of tolerance and the insults thrown around here are depressing and push a lot of people away. Like me. Keep that in mind. Good day!

TheKeatingFive · 07/12/2024 13:40

Cheesytoastie · 07/12/2024 13:37

@TheKeatingFive I do believe your opinions are wrong.

I also believe you're not interested in having your mind changed, along with the other handful of posters that are on every single pronoun thread spouting the same opinions and sharing the pronouns are rohypnol thing over and over again. Hence I won't be having a multi day argument with you like other posters have wasted their time doing.

There are many undecided people who don't care about this either way or are undecided and are watching these debates. The way the anti pronoun brigade behave was enough to sway me from not bothered to believing in inclusivity because of the way the "gender critical" as they call themselves behave and I don't want to be associated with those people, I want to live in an inclusive society where nobody is ostracized or despised the way non binary people are here. The lack of tolerance and the insults thrown around here are depressing and push a lot of people away. Like me. Keep that in mind. Good day!

Okay so if you believe my opinions are wrong answer me this.

Why should we abandon lifelong and centuries old practices of attributing pronouns to sex, in favour of 'gender identity' which no one seems to even be able to define?

Its a simple question that's at the heart of this thread and I'd love to hear your justification for it.

TheKeatingFive · 07/12/2024 13:41

I'm just going to ignore all the extra time policing, because I'm sick and tired of it all.

I've articulated the key question as I see it and I'm interested in the response 👍

RedToothBrush · 07/12/2024 13:47

Cheesytoastie · 07/12/2024 13:37

@TheKeatingFive I do believe your opinions are wrong.

I also believe you're not interested in having your mind changed, along with the other handful of posters that are on every single pronoun thread spouting the same opinions and sharing the pronouns are rohypnol thing over and over again. Hence I won't be having a multi day argument with you like other posters have wasted their time doing.

There are many undecided people who don't care about this either way or are undecided and are watching these debates. The way the anti pronoun brigade behave was enough to sway me from not bothered to believing in inclusivity because of the way the "gender critical" as they call themselves behave and I don't want to be associated with those people, I want to live in an inclusive society where nobody is ostracized or despised the way non binary people are here. The lack of tolerance and the insults thrown around here are depressing and push a lot of people away. Like me. Keep that in mind. Good day!

You have to answer the question of why women feel harmed and why gender or gender neutral serves women better than sex.

If you bother to read Invisible Women you'll fine a huge number of ways why this matters.

It's research based.

Go read it and get back to me.

Until then I'll simply regard you being unable to articulate a coherent argument and answers to the difficult questions so you have to find other ways to get us to shut up.

Like tone policing.

Trouble is we have no intention of shutting up. There's too much at stake to do that.

TheKeatingFive · 07/12/2024 13:48

Trouble is we have no intention of shutting up. There's too much at stake to do that.

Amen to this

Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/12/2024 13:54

The way the anti pronoun brigade behave was enough to sway me from not bothered to believing in inclusivity because of the way the "gender critical" as they call themselves behave and I don't want to be associated with those people

Sure. I'm sure you absolutely decided males could be considered women based on whether women on Mumsnet disagreed with it.

TheKeatingFive · 07/12/2024 13:59

The way the anti pronoun brigade behave was enough to sway me from not bothered to believing in inclusivity because of the way the "gender critical" as they call themselves behave and I don't want to be associated with those people

Yet you do want to be associated with these people?

https://terfisaslur.com

Seriously?

TERF is a slur

Documenting the abuse, harassment and misogyny of transgender identity politics

https://terfisaslur.com

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