It's who you know, not what you know

[mirrormirror5]

Wanted to get peoples thoughts on this.

I was reflecting the other morning on my career path and it saddened me somewhat.

I grew up as an academically gifted working class girl from a single parent household. No dad around whatsoever. I always had the somewhat naive belief that you could be anything you wanted to, if you worked hard and put your mind to it.

Fast forward to my university years, I excelled in a subject that I was very passionate about but I've since learnt is seen as a 'posh persons subject'. Note the very well to do people on my course...
I just didn't understand social hierarchy at that age and always believed I was worthy to be in the room.

I had a PT job all through uni and saved enough so I could do a series of highly coveted (unpaid) internships in London. I've always supported myself financially.

Then it all starts to go a bit tits up.

Great feedback but overlooked for 'friends of a friends' child at every interview opportunity. Applying for advertised roles where they always already had someone in mind, usually an old school friend etc.

It got to a point where the debt from trying was too much and I took a well paid graduate job in a relatively boring industry and left my passion behind. I'm still in that industry years later and I feel a bit sore about the whole thing

I understand that connections are important in all walks of life and at some point, most people benefit from knowing someone and getting a foot in the door. I'm also not deluded to think I would be successful for every interview, but this really was getting ridiculous.

But AIBU to believe that certain opportunities are closed to WC young people, regardless of their abilities and work ethic?

My husband and I are passionate about state schooling for future children but part of me thinks about the opportunities they might get through private education and making 'the right' connections. I guess everyone makes the most of the opportunities they've got.

YANBU.

As to your DC, it's for you to decide whether you want to be part of perpetuating this system by buying into it - I don't mean that harshly, of course the system won't stand or fall on your choice, but would it leave a sour taste for you if your DC later succeed via the 'old boys network'?

Yes, some industries are gatekeeping not only through nepotism but also through practice of unpaid internships which, for obvious reasons, are only accessible to people with a significant safety net. This is particularly true in creative and media industries but I am sure there are plenty more examples of industries that I haven't personally experienced.
My friends had their kids in a public school and, yes, the guys are doing great after finishing their education surrounded by well-connected peers. They are not quite out of teens and already have opportunities thrown at them at every corner. Lovely kids and a massive well done to them.
I found something else I loved (retrained in my late thirties) which is not a high-flying profession but I absolutely love what I do nonetheless.

Yanbu. I steer my children away from these careers.

I think it depends.
I had a background a bit like yours and I got into a russel group uni to study law then worked at a big 4 firm. No contacts etc.
i left that and then went back to it almost 20 yrs later which was because I had a friend as a partner at a different firm and he persuaded me to send in my cv.
My daughter went to a state school in a bad area and is now studying at Oxford. I’m sure contacts she makes there will help her in the future.
Knowing people in the right places definitely helps. I think others can make it too but need a lot of determination and a lot of luck too.

That's brilliant. I have a few friends who have been very successful in law, it does seem to be some of those careers where hard really pays off.

YANBU. Class bias is real and the disadvantage to working class people is significant and totally under the radar. It’s the last form of acceptable and lawful discrimination. Depressing.

I’m pleased my daughter went to state school. In some ways I think it can make uni applications better as to get top grades there is arguably harder.
Good luck to you and any future children you have.

I think you're right.

It's not just financial though, or down to who you know.

It's also about understanding that it's happening rather than being utterly baffled by the expectation that you will work for free and the realisation that this is impossible for you, but not for others.

State school often do a fantastic job at preparing children for university and obtaining the grades to get there.

However they are not very good at advising people on the 'next bit' and the processes involved so may encourage students into careers/onto courses that they will not be able to progress further in.

Thank you!

This is so true, I feel like it doesn't get much air time?

If people have contacts it can get a foot in the door, I know it’s true. Lots of my students would go off and do unpaid internships. I had one who had a summer working at the UN because her Auntie worked there.

DH is privately educated and I am not. DH got DS, one of DS mate and DS GF great work experience. Working in the HQ of a global firm and working in a University Lab. I put forward DS GF CV to my mate and she got her first job fresh out of University at my friends firm. I met my mate in the school playground of a state primary school at school drop off.

So yes it’s who you know but just as importantly how personable you and your children are. All those school playground posts on MN of how people can’t connect with other Mums in the playground.

Plus unless you can easily afford the fees then do you want your kid to be the kid who has a very different life to the rest? it can make some strive and it can give others a chip on their shoulder if they are the poor kid.

As a family we are seen as very personable and are all good communicators, DS exceptionally so. Both DS and I are chameleon like depending on the situation. That’s been the most useful thing through my life.

Yes! What makes me sad is how little my family (or teachers) could advise me and steer me away from certain careers where I was inevitably set up for disappointment.

I know some people do 'make it' but it's so rare and they usually become an example to others which further perpetuates the idea 💡 that certain industries are open to everyone

We dont have the same class issues in Ireland but I studied law and qualified as a barrister. I had no connections in the legal world and despite doing much better in the exams than others, I struggled for years as I had no connections to open up doors. Others in my class had parents who were solicitors, barristers and judges and they all got many more opportunities.
However I worked hard and built up a good reputation. I now have a very good role in-house. My DS wants to do law and I know he will have it easier as I have a lot of connections now that I can use to assist him, so he will have more opportunity early on.
I think law is one of those areas that even is you have connections you have to have ability, but it does help to make your early career easier.

Should add DS went to a shit state school, really bad on the league tables. He got all A grades at A level and top GCSE grades. He then got a degree apprenticeship. Already on 32k PA, no tuition fees and a guaranteed job. Well over a thousand applicants applied for just a few places. gruelling multi interview and test procedures for a place.

DH did want to send DS to private school and we could have afforded it plus MIL offers to chip in. I didn’t want to and some debate ensued. Without any advantage in life DH and I met as junior staff in the same workplace. My reasoning was I had met too many arrogant ex public schoolboys.

I'm seeing this right now happen to my dd. She's worked so bloody hard but she hits brick walls continuously while watching her friends who have come from upper class family just waltz into training courses, jobs etc because they have family or friends with connections.

Dd applied for something last year. The interview process was quite daunting. She prepared hard. She had all the relevant experience and qualifications. A young man she knew from uni walked into the waiting room for next phase of the process, sat next to her to catch up. He told her to go home as they were wasting her time, his dad works for the firm and the placement is his. She still stayed but yes he got the placement. She's found the whole process quite soul destroying tbh. She's a stubborn girl though so she won't give up easily but I feel for her

In my opinion, schools are at fault for false advertising. They are at it with my kids. Qualifications aren't everything, and it piles pressure on the academic ones that if they fail, it's the end of the world. In reality, in my class cohort, I turned out probably the most educated but least successful in their career. Personal characteristics go a long, long way. How gregarious you are. How much you enjoy working with others. How skilled you are as a people person. These are massively underrated. I see a Y9 boy (friend of DS). Although academically not flying, he's a completely natural leader. He'll go far.

Additionally there is the people you know and personal networks. Again, massively underrated until you enter the world of work. To be honest (I'm wc background), I've come around to this. We all operate on trust. When we have a personal recommendation whether in home life (services for example) or professional life, it carries much weight. We trust personal recommendations.

@Showerflowers Having the same experience and I am finding it profoundly saddening.

Hard work for many many years in difficult circumstances seem to stand no chance against money and contacts.

I feel I have lied to my child when I told them that hard work would give them opportunities.

Of course. what industry are you in? I always knew to stick to careers where you need “hard” not “soft” subjects because i wouldn’t be able to compete. But also I’m an immigrant so instinctively knew i had to worker harder both academically and to fit in than everyone else, so in a way i never felt “let down”. However learning the extent to HOW much difference it makes as i get older is indeed a little depressing. But that’s how the world works

You are right OP, it's called the Old Boy Network !!!!

My husband and I are passionate about state schooling for future children but part of me thinks about the opportunities they might get through private education and making 'the right' connections

Just going to private school isn't enough, you still have to be in the 'right' group. I've witnessed plenty of this. And even if private schools were abolished tomorrow, those groups of people would still stick together and provide each other with opportunities through their network. Always makes me wry smile when advocates for abolishing private school say it would give everyone more equal opportunities, of course it wouldn't.

You are right though, there's always a bit of who you know. My own DDs have benefitted from this themselves, if I'm being totally honest. However, I wouldn't say in their case it was 'not what they know' because neither of them would have got the opportunity had they not been up to the job. And they didn't take the positions away from someone else, as the positions didn't exist until they asked. Do I feel guilty? Hmmm, I sometimes feel like it's unfair that not everyone has the same opportunities but, as I said, I am confident that they are also where they are on their own merit - the door was opened though, that's true. They also went to state schools, and me and DH were very firmly working class, he grew up in foster care and I grew up in extreme poverty, so I guess no, I don't feel too bad about my DDs having opportunities now. And in the case of one (currently doing a placement year from Uni in an organisation that has never done this before), it has gone so well that they have asked her to set up a program going forward for other young people to access the organisation so something good will come out of that, not just her own benefit.

YANBU and I say that as someone who successfully went over the top and made it to the other side.

Grew up on tax credits in a working class household, went to a polytechnic (2nd in my family to go to uni, my big sister was first) and now have a relatively senior civil servant role after working my way up from the bottom.

I still wouldn’t send my kids to private school for a whole host of reasons. I don’t want to perpetuate the cycle that disadvantages kids like me, I want them to share my values of hard work and meritocracy, we could afford the fees but not lifestyle so they may end up feeling out of place, and there’s no guarantees they’ll maximise on the opportunities we bought them. My boss is old money so had the finest education (and opportunities) money can buy and I’m confident I’ll be at his level before I’m his age!

I don't know - I think you can make your own networks.

Went to a big northern uni with lots of bright and energetic state educated people and followed them to London where people got internships (and jobs to pay for them), networked, were personable and talented. They're all now on national papers/middle managment media types and none got a job via their parents. Find the talented people and stick by them!

100%. I'm from the most working class of backgrounds, but have put a great deal of effort into getting the kids into super selective schools for this exact reason. Life is undoubtedly easier when you mix with more successful people!

I'm not saying it's right. But 'twas ever thus.

I was at a Baby Naming ceremony and also present was a 20 year old young man who had dropped out of uni. He was introduced to a friend of the family who worked in finance in Hong Kong. I watched amazed as the HK finance guy offered the young man a job in Hong Kong in his company! They'd barely met. He didn't ask him anything about his course or what he wanted to do. He just said, I'm in the UK for a couple weeks. Back in HK next month. Here's my card. Call me on this date, make sure your passport is current and we can get you started by the end of next month.

I also dropped out and spent years temping in crappy admin jobs before I went back and got my degree.

It really is the circles you move in.

Completely agree. You are YANBU.
Its like snakes and ladders, only with a working class background there are far fewer ladders.

One job I had at a prestigious organisation, someone asked me casually 'who I knew' to get the job.
I was younger at the time and just said, I just applied and got it. They quickly moved on realising I did get it.